F1 2016 pre-season testing

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Vasconia
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by Vasconia » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:04 pm

Phil wrote:I appreciate the links too, much easier to watch from the youtube app on the mobile phone.

Ps: i really enjoyed pretesting. Love the speculation, the analyzing, the intepretating of lap times. None other like it. Once the season starts, the speculation stops and the tension is all over. Come Melbourne, the illusions are over.
Count me in ! I also love pre-testing, its funny to speculate and try to understand all the data around the net.

About the eternal discussion "this is pre-season and no one knows a sh*t", I think that its very exaggerated, perhaps we have no idea but the teams know more or less where they are. The can have some doubts with 1 or 2 tenths but in general they know where the other teams are.

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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by Vasconia » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:06 pm

godlameroso wrote:Tremendous improvement from Force India, biggest winners since last year by far.
FI seems strong every pre-season but then the lack of updates condemn them. It's a pity because its a team that surely knows how to do its "winter job".
Last edited by Vasconia on Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Phil
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by Phil » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:10 pm

ferkan wrote:Formula 1 is not staying the same though. Next year, new rules. Completely different aero rules apply, and while PUs stay the same that is no longer differentional factor with Mercedes and Ferrari. Plus, there is no more tokens for next year therefore everything will be pretty open. I actually think Merc will look to completely decimate field as early as possible. Not only because that would be brilliant closing to domination in 2014-2016 Formula 1, but also because as early they get maximum amount of points the earlier they can start to work on next years car.

Your reasoning might have applied last two years, but not now.
I am still yet to hear an even more convincing argument in why you'd want to show more than you have to.

PS: Yes, 2017 will shuffle the order a bit, but there's no guarantee that the 'headstart' that Mercedes has capitalized over since the V6T will not carry over in some form into 2017 and beyond as well. The chances are probably small, but that's precisely why, as the dominant team, you'd want to mask every potential you have.

If you apply that reasoning to the PU for instance; Right now, we have 4 different engine manufacturers pursuing 3-4 different design philosophies that have an impact on cooling, how much power can be achieved and somewhat also influences the aero of the car. Lets assume for a moment that Mercedes did get it right with their approach and that it's the design choice with the most potential. By not showing its true potential and keeping it close, the other manufacturers might be mistaken into believing that their design choices are competitive (or can be), or at least that any difference can be closed by other factors, like aero. Assuming that one design choice is the 'perfect solution' with the most potential, you wouldn't want others to realize that and pursuit the same design choices by copying you. Better to keep them on their design paths while hoping that they will never quite catch up.

The longer it takes them to realize that and catch up, the further and further you can make gains on your product and the bigger the headstart you have.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. (Ask the average Vettel fan what that's like.) --- bhall II

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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by dren » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:12 pm

Looks like we will have a closer championship this year. The Ferrari should challenge a bit more than it did last year. It still looks like Williams and Red Bull are not quite in the mix. The midfield looks to be pretty tight, though. I'm surprised the Renault is as 'good' as it is. I expected it to be worse than the Sauber.
Honda!

flickerf1
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by flickerf1 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:13 pm

Vasconia wrote:
godlameroso wrote:Tremendous improvement from Force India, biggest winners since last year by far.
FI seems strong every pre-season but then the lack of updates condemn them. It's a pity because its a time that surely knows to its "winter job".
Yeah, totally agree with you. They start of the season strongly, and then rarely bring updates later on in the first half of the season. Then, in the middle of it they bring a B-spec car and start consistently scoring points.
The Wicked + The Divine.

Vasconia
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by Vasconia » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:26 pm

flickerf1 wrote:
Vasconia wrote:
FI seems strong every pre-season but then the lack of updates condemn them. It's a pity because its a team that surely knows how to do its "winter job".
Yeah, totally agree with you. They start of the season strongly, and then rarely bring updates later on in the first half of the season. Then, in the middle of it they bring a B-spec car and start consistently scoring points.
Right! its true that they usually make a strong last part of the season. Their drivers are amongst my favourites so I hope they can score some good points and perhaps a podium!!

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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by Vasconia » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:28 pm

dren wrote:Looks like we will have a closer championship this year. The Ferrari should challenge a bit more than it did last year. It still looks like Williams and Red Bull are not quite in the mix. The midfield looks to be pretty tight, though. I'm surprised the Renault is as 'good' as it is. I expected it to be worse than the Sauber.
I have the feeling that RB has more potential than we think, they seem pretty confident with this car.

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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by flickerf1 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:40 pm

Vasconia wrote:
dren wrote:Looks like we will have a closer championship this year. The Ferrari should challenge a bit more than it did last year. It still looks like Williams and Red Bull are not quite in the mix. The midfield looks to be pretty tight, though. I'm surprised the Renault is as 'good' as it is. I expected it to be worse than the Sauber.
I have the feeling that RB has more potential than we think, they seem pretty confident with this car.
They definitely do. Dan seems optimistic about their chances this season: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red-b ... do-677787/
The Wicked + The Divine.

ferkan
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by ferkan » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:52 pm

Phil wrote:
ferkan wrote:Formula 1 is not staying the same though. Next year, new rules. Completely different aero rules apply, and while PUs stay the same that is no longer differentional factor with Mercedes and Ferrari. Plus, there is no more tokens for next year therefore everything will be pretty open. I actually think Merc will look to completely decimate field as early as possible. Not only because that would be brilliant closing to domination in 2014-2016 Formula 1, but also because as early they get maximum amount of points the earlier they can start to work on next years car.

Your reasoning might have applied last two years, but not now.
I am still yet to hear an even more convincing argument in why you'd want to show more than you have to.

PS: Yes, 2017 will shuffle the order a bit, but there's no guarantee that the 'headstart' that Mercedes has capitalized over since the V6T will not carry over in some form into 2017 and beyond as well. The chances are probably small, but that's precisely why, as the dominant team, you'd want to mask every potential you have.

If you apply that reasoning to the PU for instance; Right now, we have 4 different engine manufacturers pursuing 3-4 different design philosophies that have an impact on cooling, how much power can be achieved and somewhat also influences the aero of the car. Lets assume for a moment that Mercedes did get it right with their approach and that it's the design choice with the most potential. By not showing its true potential and keeping it close, the other manufacturers might be mistaken into believing that their design choices are competitive (or can be), or at least that any difference can be closed by other factors, like aero. Assuming that one design choice is the 'perfect solution' with the most potential, you wouldn't want others to realize that and pursuit the same design choices by copying you. Better to keep them on their design paths while hoping that they will never quite catch up.

The longer it takes them to realize that and catch up, the further and further you can make gains on your product and the bigger the headstart you have.
You are reading to much into it. Does Merc still have something in the tank? Yes, they do, but so do other teams. But they are not running slowly, neither they are purposely sandbagging. They have done their race sim, it was fast and it turned alot heads (like when Rosberg posted 23'0'' time). That was until Ferrari posted similar race pace sim , but since Ferrari appears to be much closer that means Merc has to have much more in hand and that means they are going to push only when Ferrari comes close enough and then make big gap again. I don't buy that.

I think we have seen what Merc has. They still have nice advantage, especially on medium tires, but there is logical reason why Ferrari should be closer, like there was last year at the same time.

IMO you are giving far less credit to people working in F1 then they deserve. There are literally thousands of highly experienced and knowledgeable engineers working at these teams. Merc surely cannot make them all go into opposite direction with simple trick like you describe, I don't find that plausible at all.

Last 2 years of Mercedes domination can be described pretty easily without resorting to some perfect cooling/turbo arrangement. Not only because the same arrangement is used by their customers, that are even further of the pace then some teams with 60-70hp deficit on engine side, but also because current gap is pretty much expected when looking at 2 frontruners.

Mercedes put whole lot of money and time to dominate in V6 era of Formula. They nailed EVERY part of the car. Their aero is, alongside RBR, best in class. And RBR in their heyday had easily half a second over next best only on aero side, so there is no reason for Merc not to have similar gap. Add to that the fact that their engine is class leading and their chassis and suspension have proved to be top as well, then that gap is easily explained with saying that they did damn good job on entire car.

So yea, I don't expect Merc to hold on if they have big advantage. They will want to embarrass everyone if they can, thats who they are and thats what everyone else would do in their place. This is F1, if they have 1 second on the rest of the pack they will show it, put that into commercial and giggle like a school girls. Next year completely new rules, no tokens and there is really no point in playing cat and mouse.

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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by godlameroso » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:04 pm

2013 Red Bull had .5 sec advantage at the last sector of some tracks. Korea and India come to mind.
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by dans79 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:28 pm

ferkan wrote:
So yea, I don't expect Merc to hold on if they have big advantage. They will want to embarrass everyone if they can, thats who they are and thats what everyone else would do in their place. This is F1, if they have 1 second on the rest of the pack they will show it, put that into commercial and giggle like a school girls. Next year completely new rules, no tokens and there is really no point in playing cat and mouse.
New to F1 aren't you?

No leading team with any brains will show 100% of their potential unless they absolutely have to. This sport is run by a senile old man and a bunch of cry babies, who will and have done everything in their power to knock a dominant team down .
Last edited by dans79 on Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ferkan
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by ferkan » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:36 pm

dans79 wrote:
ferkan wrote:
So yea, I don't expect Merc to hold on if they have big advantage. They will want to embarrass everyone if they can, thats who they are and thats what everyone else would do in their place. This is F1, if they have 1 second on the rest of the pack they will show it, put that into commercial and giggle like a school girls. Next year completely new rules, no tokens and there is really no point in playing cat and mouse.
New to F1 aren't you?

No leading team with any brains will show 100% of their potential unless they absolutely have to. This sport is run by a senile old man and a bunch of cry babies, who will and have done everything in their power to know a dominant team down .
So you think they didn't show their advantage last year in China, Monza, Belgium etc? They run as fast as they can run while having reliability in their mind. If you think they could go entire year on "strat mode 10" then maybe you are new to F1.

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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by dans79 » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:53 pm

dans79 wrote: No leading team with any brains will show 100% of their potential unless they absolutely have to. This sport is run by a senile old man and a bunch of cry babies, who will and have done everything in their power to knock a dominant team down .
I bolded the important part for you.


ferkan wrote: So you think they didn't show their advantage last year in China, Monza, Belgium etc? They run as fast as they can run while having reliability in their mind.
The last few laps at Monza last year seems to say otherwise...........

lap 48, Peter Bonnington to Lewis Hamilton
So we need to open this gap right up. Do what we can you’ve got seven laps remaining. OK Lewis we can go strat mode three, we need to pull a gap. Don’t ask questions, just execute.

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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by ferkan » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:10 pm

dans79 wrote:
dans79 wrote: No leading team with any brains will show 100% of their potential unless they absolutely have to. This sport is run by a senile old man and a bunch of cry babies, who will and have done everything in their power to knock a dominant team down .
I bolded the important part for you.


ferkan wrote: So you think they didn't show their advantage last year in China, Monza, Belgium etc? They run as fast as they can run while having reliability in their mind.
The last few laps at Monza last year seems to say otherwise...........

lap 48, Peter Bonnington to Lewis Hamilton
So we need to open this gap right up. Do what we can you’ve got seven laps remaining. OK Lewis we can go strat mode three, we need to pull a gap. Don’t ask questions, just execute.
It still doesn't change what I said, exactly the opposite. Because they heard pressure in tires could cost them race (at best 25 seconds) he needed to turn up the engine as much as it can and drive as fast as possible. But, does that mean he can use that mode for entire race? No. Does it mean his tires can go like that for entire race? No. Does that mean that W06 engine can hold on for 4 races driving in aggressive mode for entire race? No.

There is a reason Mercedes brought that new engine before deadline, to Monza of all places. And that was to show how far ahead of Ferrari they are. Remember, that new engine was supposed to bring updates so that they can use agressive mode for longer periods then the old one and thats exactly what happened. Lewis stormed from Vettel and had more then half a second a lap advantage, on pure power track.

dren
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Re: F1 2016 pre-season testing

Post by dren » Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:38 pm

Vasconia wrote:
dren wrote:Looks like we will have a closer championship this year. The Ferrari should challenge a bit more than it did last year. It still looks like Williams and Red Bull are not quite in the mix. The midfield looks to be pretty tight, though. I'm surprised the Renault is as 'good' as it is. I expected it to be worse than the Sauber.
I have the feeling that RB has more potential than we think, they seem pretty confident with this car.
I think they will be fighting it out with Williams for 3rd place. DR seems to support that. We may see the oddball podium from Williams/RB throughout the year and possibly one from TR or FI early in the season.
Honda!



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