When will ALO leave McLaren?

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When will ALO leave McLaren?

Poll ended at 17 Mar 2016, 23:07

Right after GP of Australia
2
2%
after GP of Spain
0
No votes
after the GP of Canada
2
2%
after the GP of Hungary/Germany/Spa when "rogue" PU iteration didn't work out well
4
3%
after the 2016 F1 season
41
33%
after 2017 testing
5
4%
after 2017 GP of Australia
1
1%
ALO will fullfil his contract till the end of 2017 at McLaren
69
56%
 
Total votes: 124

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Manu_Forti
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Re: When will ALO leave McLaren?

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FrukostScones wrote:Ted Kravitz predicts Manor faster than McLaren...haha
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... ason-ahead
3:47
Hardly a shocker. Sky have been slating Mclaren for a bit now. Sky ran an article recently on their website about McLaren Honda and in it said "Remember the claimed 200bhp boost" when that was never in fact said by Honda, it appeared in a Spanish paper I believe, and was openly denied by Honda themselves when it appeared.

As for Kravitz, according to an ex forces colleague who worked for an F1 team for a few years, the mechanics of a certain team gave him the nickname "Thrombo" (Thrombosis, or in laymans terms "a slow moving clot") as he would often block the pitlane while filming when they were trying to pack up after a race.
"In times of universal deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act" .. George Orwell

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Andres125sx
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Re: When will ALO leave McLaren?

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Phil wrote:
Andres125sx wrote:Sorry but I see it very differently. It was Ferrari the weak part of that relationship, not Alonso.
That's exactly the point. In a team-sport, the team as a whole needs to extract its full potential. It's not enough to be the 'best driver' if the team isn't and vice-versa. The point I'm making is that Alonso is undisputed a brilliant driver, but IMO he lacks that element where he is able to push his team forward outside of racing.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/23495111.app
A Ferrari statement said Alonso was reminded by Di Montezemolo that "all the great champions who have driven for Ferrari have always been asked to put the interests of the team above their own".

According to the statement, Di Montezemolo also insisted that "this is the moment to stay calm, avoid polemics and show humility and determination in making one's own contribution, standing alongside the team and its people both at the track and outside it".
Sorry Phil, but you keep ignoring that was his 4th season in red, past season he drove the best season of his career (according to his own words) and that was not enough to win the title, and that´s basic to understand Alonso behaviour and decisions.

It´s not like you imply, he´s not a team player, he only look after his own interests... no it´s far from that. He was a perfect team player despite Ferrari poor perfomance for some seasons, but as the saying says, there´s a limit for anything, and 2012 was too much for him, he did an asthonishing job that season (once again after 2010, even better actually) but it was not enough.... again.

Frustrating is not enough to describe his feelings. And then 2013.... a poor car again. 2012 car was not enough to win the title, but at least he could fight for it, but then next season a poor car that cannot fight for anything again....


You constantly mention how Alonso behaviour could have helped his team. Don´t worry, I know, IMHO that´s the only reason in 2010 and 2012 Ferrari fought for the title. But then 2013 and 2014.... When you give everything for your team, the result is no success, and next season your tools are even worse.... can you please explain to me how to keep focused in that situation?
Phil wrote:The reality is; In a time when Alonso wanted to (had to) leave Ferrari, RedBull didn't want him, neither did Mercedes nor Williams, leaving him no other place to go than to McLaren (who with the best Mercedes engine ended 5th in the WCC) . And that is Alonso we're speaking about - even among most team principals still regarded as perhaps the best driver on the grid. Why wouldn't they be fighting for him if not for his troubled history with teams and team-mates and perhaps his attitude? It's a factor not to be underestimated IMO.
The reality is currently not even best F1 driver in history (name it as you want) will make any difference in results, because no driver can compensate Mercedes advantage, so there´s no point in paying his salary.

Also, Mercedes already has one of the best in the grid so they obviously are not interested either. Ferrari need no mention, it was Alonso who got tired of them. And RBR has never signed a driver from another team, they only promote their own drivers from STR. Actually, Alonso is the only driver RBR tried to sign up outside his young drivers program, so it´s actually the other way around.

BTW, there was some talk between Ferrari and Mercedes about a change Hamilton-Alonso. It was confirmed, so not even in that aspect you´re right I´m afraid, Mercedes was interested in Alonso, despite Hamilton drive for them.

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FrukostScones
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Re: When will ALO leave McLaren?

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car handling looked good.... lets wait for bahrain to assess the PU...
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

LionKing
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Re: When will ALO leave McLaren?

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Andres125sx wrote:BTW, there was some talk between Ferrari and Mercedes about a change Hamilton-Alonso. It was confirmed, so not even in that aspect you´re right I´m afraid, Mercedes was interested in Alonso, despite Hamilton drive for them.
I don't think Mercedes was interested at all. If I am not mistaken, it was just a proposal from Alonso's management!

Last year Alonso also said he can go to any team he wants but in reality neither Mercedes nor RBR was interested at all.

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Phil
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Re: When will ALO leave McLaren?

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Andres125sx wrote:Sorry Phil, but you keep ignoring that was his 4th season in red, past season he drove the best season of his career (according to his own words) and that was not enough to win the title, and that´s basic to understand Alonso behaviour and decisions.
I wasn't ignoring anything - in fact, the points you are picking apart and focusing on are part of a much larger picture - a picture starting from his troubled 2007 season at McLaren right up to the current one.

No one is disputing his on-track ability to drive consistently and to get most of the potential out of the cars he has driven. My posts are focusing on his perceived character, his work-ethos and what in the seasons from 2007 to current led to the fact that he has only got 2 WDC titles to his name.

It starts with season 2007, where he evidently was frustrated and bitter at how the season was unfolding. I'm not saying that it was by his own doing that resulted in the fallout with McLaren, but no matter how bad it was, he could have handled himself better. He could have stayed focus, perhaps perform better and maybe that 2007 season would have unfolded differently. Turned out the animosity that unfolded and he did contribute his part led to blackmail and later spygate as well as also to an unworkable situation between him and the team and ultimately him having to leave it.

Think about this for a moment. If that relationship had stayed intact, even losing 2007 to Lewis, he could/would have remained at McLaren as the more experienced double WDC and in 2008 have the best opportunities again to add another WDC.

It didn't and he went back to Renault - a struggling team at the time - only to watch his former team-mate secure the 2008 championship for McLaren. My point is that that 2007 season was damaging and would later unfold to be distinctive in how the rest unfolded.

Okay, he joined the Scuderia in arguably one of their best seasons since 2008 when he was leading the championship right up to that very last race when Ferrari had it in their own hands. Vettel clinched it and that was it. I suppose 2010 and 2012 were simply bad luck. Certainly there was nothing in Alonso's driving that can be criticized - there was no other driver who drove more consistent during those two seasons.

But the frustration of not winning and perhaps partly of his own character lead to limited options when realizing that Ferrari would be the wrong team to attempt to win the WDC again. In 2012 when Niki approached Hamilton, Alonso was probably a probability too, but he was already well settled at Ferrari and perhaps due to his age and the contract situation, Hamilton was pursued rather than Alonso. Such is life.

Whatever happened to Alonso, I see him now as a very bitterly frustrated driver. This became evident last year in the Japanese GP and IMO that outburst was unacceptable. He knew it the moment he signed for McLaren (baring in mind he had no other place to go, no other top team that was willing to take him) that that would be a long-term project. And the key thing is; in order to achieve anything with McLaren, the car needs to work and for that, the partnership between the team and Honda is crucial. You do not, as the leading experienced 'best-driver-on-the-grid' embarrass your team and the company (Honda) who is paying your salary the way he did. He humiliated them and that is a big no-go for a Japanese company at their home grandprix.

This is where I see drivers like Ricciardo, Vettel and Button as drivers who have a positive influence on their teams. Keep their heads low and work with the team to better your position. As a Hamilton fan, he too needed to learn a lot. During the seasons at McLaren, it showed a greater difference between how a persona like Button created a nice, positive place that allowed him to perform at his best, while Hamilton seemed frustrated, troubled and bitter. That too led to him leaving the team as that relationship too broke down.

Montezemolo said "no driver is bigger than Ferrari". It IMO shows some of the deeper issues that led to Ferrari's struggles and that of Alonso and their working relationship. Compare that to Vettel, who came off a difficult season being beaten by Ricciardo, into a new team with that amount of energy and positiveness. That is exactly what Ferrari needed and even though I am anything but a Vettel supporter, I see the both of them doing very well in the future. Will it be enough to win further titles? That depends on their technical ability, but I certainly see them on the right track - something I didn't see while Alonso was there. Even way back in 2010 or especially after, I could see frustrations in that team building...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Vasconia
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Re: When will ALO leave McLaren?

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I mostly agree with you but I think that there was no solution other than leaving McLaren in 2007. I can criticize Alonso´s some reactions but the management of the situation by the team was a disaster.

And I think that the relation of Alonso and Ferrari was badly affected by two situations:

1. The ending of the 2010s season, that day left a mark of fustration in the driver and team which lasted too long.

2. The lack of constant improvement in the team, with a sense of "we dont know how to build a WC winner car" floating.

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Andres125sx
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Re: When will ALO leave McLaren?

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Phil wrote:It starts with season 2007, where he evidently was frustrated and bitter at how the season was unfolding. I'm not saying that it was by his own doing that resulted in the fallout with McLaren, but no matter how bad it was, he could have handled himself better. He could have stayed focus, perhaps perform better and maybe that 2007 season would have unfolded differently. Turned out the animosity that unfolded and he did contribute his part led to blackmail and later spygate as well as also to an unworkable situation between him and the team and ultimately him having to leave it.
Sorry Phil but IMO you´re assuming he was frustrated so he didn´t perform and could have handled the situation better, so he must be responsible of the situation. You make asumptions to prove your point

Facts are he was current champion, his team mate was a rookie, and he accepted equal treatment from the very first race in F1 of his team mate. I don´t think too many champions will admit that, Alonso did

I could countinue arguing about the easy to see favouritism McLaren showed with Hamilton, but we´ve discussed this before, so let´s agree to disagree
Phil wrote: This is where I see drivers like Ricciardo, Vettel and Button as drivers who have a positive influence on their teams. Keep their heads low and work with the team to better your position. As a Hamilton fan, he too needed to learn a lot. During the seasons at McLaren, it showed a greater difference between how a persona like Button created a nice, positive place that allowed him to perform at his best, while Hamilton seemed frustrated, troubled and bitter. That too led to him leaving the team as that relationship too broke down.

Montezemolo said "no driver is bigger than Ferrari". It IMO shows some of the deeper issues that led to Ferrari's struggles and that of Alonso and their working relationship. Compare that to Vettel, who came off a difficult season being beaten by Ricciardo, into a new team with that amount of energy and positiveness.
Sorry but you keep comparing aples to oranges. If you want to compare, then compare both in first season, not first season of Vettel with Alonso situation after losing two titles painfully. Aples to oranges.

If you compare first season for both, Alonso was as positive and team player as Vettel, the whole team was delighted with Alonso, it was all positive comments from all parts. Same for next seasons.

If Vettel live a similar situation in Ferrari loosing two titles in final races, and driving a slower car each season, and even so he manage to keep as positive as now, then I´ll agree, bute there´s a long road until that. Right now the only thing we know for sure about Vettel´s capability to support dificult situations is he left the team he won four titles in a row after first difficult season :wink:

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FrukostScones
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Re: When will ALO leave McLaren?

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time to quit I'd say... (after that lucky escape).
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

kishigae
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FrukostScones wrote:time to quit I'd say... (after that lucky escape).
That could have happened with any other car. Maybe time to quit F1 for him?

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FrukostScones
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kishigae wrote:
FrukostScones wrote:time to quit I'd say... (after that lucky escape).
That could have happened with any other car. Maybe time to quit F1 for him?
sure, yeah why risk it again in this dog. nothing to win with it, only painful and frustrating.

but some say, patience is bitter but the fruit is sweet. ; )

but somehow ALO looks very old and tired these days.. and this long hair.. makes him look a bit "weirdo-ish"

he should retire for (made up) medical reasons and grow a company / sports team or foundation and live a happy life.
F1 doesn't do good to him anymore.
Last edited by FrukostScones on 21 Mar 2016, 14:51, edited 1 time in total.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

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Phil
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Re: When will ALO leave McLaren?

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Vasconia wrote:I mostly agree with you but I think that there was no solution other than leaving McLaren in 2007. I can criticize Alonso´s some reactions but the management of the situation by the team was a disaster.

And I think that the relation of Alonso and Ferrari was badly affected by two situations:

1. The ending of the 2010s season, that day left a mark of fustration in the driver and team which lasted too long.

2. The lack of constant improvement in the team, with a sense of "we dont know how to build a WC winner car" floating.
Good points. I suppose my point is; McLaren had a WDC capable car in 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2012. Alonso in 2007 put himself in a position where he blackmailed his own team, the team supplying him with a seat and a WDC capable car and that is a big 'no-go'. A driver should never get involved in politics, especially not towards his own team that is supplying him the tools for success. A driver is an employee and you never bite the hand that feeds you.

Alonso did this, evidently, in 2007 and he is showed signs of this at Ferrari too (out of frustration and later in his career at Ferrari) and again in 2015 at McLaren (again out of frustration).


Imagine him staying at McLaren, losing 2007. He might have won 2008 and he'd be a 3 time world champion. His position had been more favorable then, being more "wanted" at any team, including RedBull who then rose to become the winning team after 2010. I predict Alonso would have looked back on a very different career if he had stayed at McLaren back in 2007. Part of his difficult career is down to what happened then.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Vasconia
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I can see your point but the situation in McLaren was unsustainable, the was a real civir war.

What about 2008? well I see a total war between Alonso and Hamilton, and Massa taking advantage from this situation and winning the WC. Its quite clear for me if you take into account that Lewis almost lost the WC against Massa when he was the only leader of the team.

bhall II
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Phil wrote:Whatever happened to Alonso, I see him now as a very bitterly frustrated driver
I think he exemplifies a permutation of the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is a paradigm that emerges when an unskilled individual is so unskilled that he doesn't realize he's unskilled. If that condition can be said to exist along a spectrum of sorts, I think driving a race car comes so naturally to Alonso that he can't understand why anyone struggles with anything. From my point of view, that's where the frustration is born.

"Why can't you build a good car for me? It's easy; you just do it."

I don't know why that occurred to me. But, it did yesterday when I realized it's entirely possible he'll never win another race, let alone a World Championship. That's a damn shame for someone with his ability.

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Phil
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(in reply to Vasconia)

...or having two highly competitive McLaren drivers would have resulted in them taking more points away from Ferrari and Massa? It could have gone either way sure... I just think that moving away from a winning team for a situation that was also partly self inflicted is a double fail. Those two years at Renault only set him back. At least one could say that he achieved driving for the Scuderia which was perhaps his end goal anyway, but I never quite got the impression that Alonso and Ferrari were as harmonized as a team, as perhaps Schumacher and Ferrari (back in the day) or Vettel and Ferrari right now (although how that will end up after a few seasons is still up in the air).


Bhall II, very good point. I also agree, it's a damn shame. :|
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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garychopper
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Re: When will ALO leave McLaren?

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Long time lurker but this is my first post. I have a soft spot for Ferrari and have followed alonso's whole career with Ferrari closely and being an architect, I like to observe and analyse and I think it is worthwhile to look back and analyze his time at Ferrari.

There is no doubt that Alonso is a great driver but I think that there is part of his personality which makes him think that he is bigger than the team and that does not work with teams like Ferrari who work best when there is a driver who can motivate and galvanise them. Ferrari being Hot blooded, is prone to knee jerk reactions, and this frustration, tragedy and drama is part of its charm, it's mystique..and this is why drivers come of age when they drive for Ferrari as happened with Alonso and now it is happening with vettel. It just so happens that Ferrari provokes strong emotions.
When Alonso started driving for Ferrari, I think he fell into that spell, I think he really wanted to win a championship with Ferrari and he drove some very good races with Ferrari in 2010. But that last race blunder cost him his championship and I think he fell into his own hole, thinking of himself as a martyr and the team being the villains for his loss. Ferrari in their knee jerk reaction fired Chris dyer.
The 2010 Ferrari was a solid car, not the fastest, but no slouch either, but the pressure on the team was enormous 'to be creative' as the focus was on red bull for its creative aerodynamics and mclaren for their f duct.
The 2011 season was a disaster, red bull ran away with the championship, the pressure on Ferrari became unbearable and Aldo Costa was made the scapegoat. It was as if the team is trying to please Alonso and the internal polemics of Ferrari were once again starting to show. I remember reading an interview of newey where he said, I look at lotus and I see some creativity, but I look at Ferrari and I don't see anything new. This is probably an underhand jibe at a competitor which as silverstone showed was a very good car.
Aldo Costa in a later interview in 2014 gave some interesting pointers, he said I rate Alonso as one of the very best when he is inside the car, but outside he is an enigma, I was never able to understand him. Most probably he was referring to the dark brooding side of his personality...
Interestingly ferraris quest of being creative, started in 2012 season, with alonsos chosen creative team; tombazis and fry, with a pull rod creative front suspension and acer ducts..the car was a dog in the first part of the season but Alonso consistently drove the hell out of it and combined with one of the most unpredictable season in years, almost dragged it to the title. In hindsight this was probably a bad thing for Ferrari as they could not see the downhill slope they were on, not realizing that the people in charge of the car are not capable.
From then on the downfall of Ferrari is clear, one bad season after another, a publically frustrated driver and a team in chaos.
Incidentally, it is also clear that since Alonso left, Ferrari for the first time in years, is showing a consistent improvement year after year, a car which was 1.3 seconds off the pace at the start of last year finished about 0. 6 sec at the end of the season and is much closer yet this year.

I also think Alonso will not win any race again, let alone a championship which is a pity for a driver of his calibre, But I guess it is his karma, for good or bad,as he, as the leading team member, was equally responsible for the teams glory and defeat.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication- Leonardo da vinci

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