F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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ChrisDanger wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:There is never any meaningful data in the noise. See the bits where they complain that F1 is boring but don't want to slow it down if it makes for better racing.
Well if I had my way F1 would be insanely fast, especially while cornering or changing direction (requiring mega-downforce) but also have close racing (which downforce hinders, IMO). Unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world, no matter how much I wish we did. But I would hardly call that noise.
So you want the impossible then. Like I said, noise not data.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

bhall II
473
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Just_a_fan wrote:90% say it's important for F1 to be cutting edge. These engines are cutting edge. If they were louder no one would be moaning about the engines.

It's quite amazing that they can make so much power from a small engine and then vent it through an open pipe and it's so quiet. Turbo cars can be noisy as we have seen in the past. Efficient turbo cars much less so.

As with all of these surveys the results are fairly meaningless. In effect it says "we want what we want and we want it now" "yes, but what do you want?" "we want what we want". There is never any meaningful data in the noise. See the bits where they complain that F1 is boring but don't want to slow it down if it makes for better racing.
First, you can't dismiss something as meaningless noise and then cite that very same meaningless noise to support another opinion one way or the other.

Second, "better racing" means different things to different people. For instance, the GPDA survey suggests "better racing" doesn't necessarily mean more overtaking...

Image

Lastly, of course the data is flawed, because respondents weren't randomly selected. However, that doesn't mean the numbers presented are useless.

If we know that 90.1% of respondents (to the Autosport survey) believe F1 should feature cutting edge technology, but only 32% (from the GPDA survey) believe F1 needs to promote increasing fuel efficiency, it's perfectly valid to question whether or not hybrid powertrains are the answer. (For what it's worth, there's nothing about current engines that's genuinely on the cutting edge. From the hybrid layout to HCCI combustion, it's all been done before. The word here is novel. F1 power units are novel.)

And since 46.1% of respondents are against the 1.6L turbo-hybrid formula, but only 35.7% (from the same survey) think the cars aren't loud enough, we can safely assume that objections to the formula aren't just related to how it sounds.

Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Looking at your image, it appears that the "exciting" times were just after a period of consistently low overtakes that was replaced with lots of overtakes. The "boring" times were just after a period of very high overtakes that were replaced with reduced overtakes. One can just as easily state that the respondents were thinking only about their current view of the state of F1. When overtaking had suddenly increased, they were excitied. When overtaking had taken a downturn they were bored.

As someone who doesn't think that "excitement" = "lots of overtaking" I consider this to be strange but not unusual in a sport that seems to major on "fans" rather than "enthusiasts".

In my opinion, exciting racing is where drivers vie for a place over several corners or laps. Lots of attempts to make a pass are much more exciting than lots of passes. But the data presented doesn't suggest that this is a commonly held view. Sadly, I fear that the FIA, FOM and the teams think that "excitement" = "lots of successful overtakes". That one formula is the reason that F1 has become the shadow of its former self. I well remember watching races where overtaking was a rarity and thinking "what a great race" because there had been any amount of close racing. Others, who were not enthusiasts of F1, called it "processional". Again, that word has haunted F1 for 20 years.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

bhall II
473
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Since four drivers from three teams went into the last race of 2010 with a chance to claim the World Championship, I'd say that's probably a big reason why the season was described as "competitive" and "exciting." The sport hasn't seen anything comparable since 2012, in large part because development restrictions within the rules have all but eliminated the mystery.

I've known since February of 2014 that Lewis Hamilton and Mercedes will be World Champions for as long as this formula exists, and I can't think of anything more boring than an outcome that's essentially guaranteed.

Think back to last year's British Grand Prix and how everyone went nuts because Williams was seemingly a legitimate threat. You'd never guess it was a compelling race just by looking at the lap chart...

Image
Pit stop overtaking aplenty

With regard to the frivolity of current overtaking trends, I completely agree with you. I never thought overtaking in a motor race would piss me off. But...

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strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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In my opinion, exciting racing is where drivers vie for a place over several corners or laps. Lots of attempts to make a pass are much more exciting than lots of passes.
Hold it, You mean there are people who think otherwise? :lol:
That explains a lot. :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

graham.reeds
16
Joined: 30 Jul 2015, 09:16

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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Do those overtakes in the 80 and 90s include the places lost due to reliability? If not and you took out places gained due to cars dropping out how different would the picture look?

Johnnie Herbert gained 6(?) places to win at Monza due to those ahead of him dropping out.

bhall II
473
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: F1 Bloopers and Head-scratchers: Rules Edition

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graham.reeds wrote:Do those overtakes in the 80 and 90s include the places lost due to reliability?
Clip the Apex wrote:The overtaking figures for each race (across all data sets) do not include:
  • Position changes on the first lap of the race
  • Position changes due to drivers lapping backmarkers
  • Positions gained in the pits
  • Positions gained due to drivers yielding
  • Positions gained when a car has a serious technical problem; e.g. puncture, accident damage, etc.
The final criteria involves subjective judgements and consequently figures can never be regarded as ‘definitive’. Gaps in the available data, such as moves missed by TV cameras or obscured on lap charts by pit stops or retirements, mean that the data do not lend themselves to detailed analysis at the micro level, but are indicative of general trends.