Will Brexit have an impact on F1?

[FoxHound]

oh steven... I couldn't disagree more. Dictatorships were built on arguments just as these. "oh but the public is too ignorant to possibly know what's good for them" I've been hearing a lot of these arguments coming from just about any politician, giving weight to their own arguments and disregarding all others.

I could not know how clueless or not the 52% of those are that voted for Brexit, but I am quite confident the other 48% isn't any less clueless either for why they would want to remain in the EU if not for fear of the big unknown or simply because there is a upside for the (short) foreseeable future.

And just to put this one outthere; The Swiss population have been voting on such matters for many many many decades and we're still around too. Perhaps there are difference interests at play here and perhaps not everyone should pretend that everything that is better for themselves is also better for everyone else?

Are you british Phil?

I ask because all the people i work with have an education beyond college.
They are all below 40, and they all earn over £30k per annum.
They all looked in horror at the results.

A quick trip to facebook and a few old college friends from days gone by (in the uk) took to posting national flags and some pretty derogatory remarks about foreigners living in the uk.

Well, truly... if they realised the reason for migration has more to do with their own attitudes, than that of the people migrating, surely we'd see a different picture.

Britain is a service sector industry, and a high percentageof jobs are low paid. British nationals in many cases, would rather take social benefits to cleaning toilets, making food, nursing the sick, driving taxis etc etc.

Its a compounded problem when generations of families live on state handouts, not having to do anything to justify the assistance.
Grandfather, father and son, with no work, but a car a house and a holiday a year. And a family, don't forget their kids!
And some of these want out of the very institution that enables their existence.

Detached from reality. And when reality bites, it will do so fangs bared, only for the idocracy to blame europe, the jews, aliens or the illuminati.

[Ciro Pabón]

.......
1. No more muslim or foreign drivers stealing jobs in British teams: say goodbye to Alonso, who probably is half Romani as most Spaniards have some "gitano" blood.
On a side note, Button CANNOT convert to Islam, of course, without risking his position at McLaren, so he becomes Anglican in public.

how do you think this is relevant or appropriate, C P ??

Relevant, a lot.

Appropriate, as much as populism, nationalism and racism are appropriate.

Let some Brexiters talks by themselves, in case you haven't heard them speak:

"It's all about immigration. It's not about trade or Europe or anything like that, it's all about immigration. It's to stop the Muslims coming into this country. Simple as that. The movement from Europe, fair enough. But not from Africa, Syria, Iraq, everywhere else, it's all wrong"

http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aB1rZ3D_460sv.mp4

[Phil]

Are you british Phil?

I ask because all the people i work with have an education beyond college.
They are all below 40, and they all earn over £30k per annum.
They all looked in horror at the results.

I'm not. I'm actually Swiss. Which gives me a bit of a different view, given that Switzerland is not part of the EU, though we are contractually bound by many bilateral agreements which means we are half a step of being an EU member too. But not quite.

Knowing the political landscape in Switzerland, I would assume many of the reasons that many many voted in favor of Brexit are rather similar to what is happening here.

We are a relatively small country (8 million) but quite densely populated. The bilateral agreements and the freedom of movement that we have with the EU has their advantages no doubt, especially economic advantages. For one, we have been able to get a lot of cheap labor that has enabled the state for instance to invest a lot of money to build infrastructure. There's no doubt that employing locals for the same job would have been much more expensive. For one, supply is limited and that creates higher cost. Cheap labor helps there. If you're lucky enough to be within the middle class, life's good. Cheap labor eventually leads to cheaper products and goods which translates to stronger spending power. But the effect is rather short lived; Sooner or later, those people lead to a more competitive salary environment. We've seen this happen in the health care sector for instance. What used to be rather well paying jobs have seen a drastic decrease over the years. The problem is simple to explain: When you suddenly have a pool of potentially 700 million (EU) opposed to only 8 million (locals), the supply is that much higher. Of course the pool isn't that big in reality; Not all of those 700 million are actually willing to move out of their country and neither are all the 8 million locals looking for jobs. But the point still stands; Back a few decades ago when the EU was rather small, its members were rather similar in ethos and wealth. With the EU expanding towards the East to poorer countries, it has caused a lot of people from those countries to come look for jobs and a new start in 'our countries'. So jobs have been devalued yes. Not all sectors equally, but the health care is a great example. In fact, it's been so extreme, that most people who work these jobs are immigrants and not locals anymore. This is a process that can be seen throughout the market place btw, it's not exclusive to one sector. Sectors that require higher skill are less vulnerable of course.

So where am I heading with this? It's rather simple: Having cheap labor is a two edged sword. What are some of the consequences? When jobs become as devalued as they are (as a result of all that supply of potential people and EU citizens willing to work those jobs for less salary), you sooner or later have to deal with dividing social classes and sooner or later, that leads to minimum wages being required to tackle poverty.

But hey, it's all fine as long as it's good for the "economy" right?

At least here in Switzerland, you can tell that people have had enough. The economy is important no doubt, but at what cost? In our country, we have come to realize (or at least many of us) that we are a rather small country with very finite resources and space. Is it worth having a stronger economy on paper if we will have given up valuable land to build more houses? I tell you what - the economy (enterprises, businesses), they love strong economic growth and lots of immigration. More people = more business, more of everything. You can build more houses, more money gets spent to increase infrastructure, roads, cars, the lot you name it. And all those people come here, earn a living, pay taxes, buy goods which in itself flows all the way back into the economy and into the pockets of every single citizen. But again, at what cost? What will your country have given up for it? Here, they are already starting to build smaller apartments because you can build more and all those people, among many being immigrants, working now devalued jobs need to live somewhere too that they can afford. And the crazy thing is; more and more keep coming because with the expansion of the EU into poorer countries, these people are still much better off here (along with all the social securities) than they are in their countries.

So I guess where I am heading with this, is that life itself can not be solely measured in the value of money or economic strength. There's more to it. And I can find quite a few reasons why I as a singular citizen am not pleased in what direction the EU i s heading or that some of these decisions are being made outside of what the 'simple minded' citizen can influence. Yet it all affects us. Especially what has been going on in the EU lately, not to mention the whole Syria crisis and how that will impact our economy for years and years to come.

Will Brexit be good for the British? Short run? Long run? For which citizens? I'm certain, the answer may vary. But I'm fairly certain beyond anything; The EU desperately needed this kick.

[Jolle]

.......
1. No more muslim or foreign drivers stealing jobs in British teams: say goodbye to Alonso, who probably is half Romani as most Spaniards have some "gitano" blood.
On a side note, Button CANNOT convert to Islam, of course, without risking his position at McLaren, so he becomes Anglican in public.

how do you think this is relevant or appropriate, C P ??

Relevant, a lot.

Appropriate, as much as populism, nationalism and racism are appropriate.

Let some Brexiters talks by themselves, in case you haven't heard them speak:

"It's all about immigration. It's not about trade or Europe or anything like that, it's all about immigration. It's to stop the Muslims coming into this country. Simple as that. The movement from Europe, fair enough. But not from Africa, Syria, Iraq, everywhere else, it's all wrong"

http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aB1rZ3D_460sv.mp4

Just look who are very happy about Brexit:
- right wing nationalist organisations
- Donald Trump
- populist right wing movements across Europe
- Putin
- ISIS
- Bernie Ecclestone
(Spotting a trent here?)

How are sad now:
- all (yes, all!) Democratic chosen leaders of the world (including GB's own)
- all (yes all!) Major businesses across the globe

[krisfx]

A bit OT, but the way things are going, I can see the EU taking more power if the UK leaves completely undermining the major purpose of the leave campaign (other than a horrifying amount of open racism & xenophobia).

Simply, we cannot accept trade deals without the "bad bits" (freedom of movement etc), which also means we'd stick with. Our conservative party have been known to Veto things like Human Rights laws, which we'd no longer be able to do, which is a better scenario for everyone.

It is, however terrifying to know that if we do leave & the above doesn't happen. The prospect of being stuck on an island ruled by Conservatives, with no one to control them is not an appealing one.

[henry]

I'm with Steven. I think this was such a complex problem that asking the population at large to make a decision on it was not reasonable.

This is not because I think that people are stupid but more because we are all humans and the human mind is ill suited to answering such problems.

The field of behavioural science gives us some clues as to why this is the case. Two findings from this domain came in to play in this referendum.

1. If you repeat a lie enough it becomes a truth.

2. If you are confronted with a difficult problem the tendency is to substitute a simpler problem and answer that and use that answer in stead of the more difficult.

Two groups of people are experts in using these, and other findings in the same vein. One group is the advertising and marketing sector. To some extent they are kept in check by bodies such as Advertising Standards Agencies. The other is politicians and their advisors. In theory they are controlled by being repeatedly put up for election. But being experts in the above their ability to avoid the true consequences of their deceitfulness is unsurprisingly good.

So, in my opinion, this referendum was decided based on which group could frame the best substitute questions, supported or otherwise by lies. Control over this was pretty much impossible particularly when, in general, the major media outlets were partial and conniving.

This is a problem for all democracies but I think it is particularly an issue for those that use simple majority, first past the post, electoral systems. In 4 years time, next UK general election, a new set of lies and simple substitute questions will serve to substitute for the more complex reality that has gone before.

Soon people will start asking corollaries to the question they answered. Why are there still immigrants? Why hasn't the NHS got more money? Why haven't we made some shiny new laws? .....

as for the effect on F1 I think it will depend on how the world economy reacts to the uncertainty of the coming months and years.

[henry]

@phil. I won't quote your long and interesting post.

I would add to it that the squeeze on the income of the lower paid not only comes from incoming people but also from outgoing capital. When a significant manufacturing capability moves somewhere in the world to take advantage of lower priced labour, amongst other drivers, the people left behind are left to form a larger pool of workers competing for jobs that can't move, service, building, farming etc. That happens within the EU and without. Both issues need to be managed for a cohesive and happy society. I think that might be more manageable in the context of an EU but that's just a feeling.

The U.K. likewise suffers from population density and housing issues. These are also excacerbated by capital. It's more profitable for construction companies to sit on land with planning consent than build on it.

I agree the EU probably needed a kick, but I fear some in the UK , particularly those without capital, will suffer a limp for some time ( maybe forever).

[Tommy Cookers]

many older people voting for Brexit said that they were accepting economic damage in the forseeable term .....
but were so voting to bolster the future prospects of their children or grandchildren
against the vast and continuing scale of unemployment of young people due to the failure of the Eurozone (single currency)

though young people mostly voted Remain

the annual Greek debt crisis episode starts any day now

[miqi23]

.......
1. No more muslim or foreign drivers stealing jobs in British teams: say goodbye to Alonso, who probably is half Romani as most Spaniards have some "gitano" blood.
On a side note, Button CANNOT convert to Islam, of course, without risking his position at McLaren, so he becomes Anglican in public.

how do you think this is relevant or appropriate, C P ??

Relevant, a lot.

Appropriate, as much as populism, nationalism and racism are appropriate.

Let some Brexiters talks by themselves, in case you haven't heard them speak:

"It's all about immigration. It's not about trade or Europe or anything like that, it's all about immigration. It's to stop the Muslims coming into this country. Simple as that. The movement from Europe, fair enough. But not from Africa, Syria, Iraq, everywhere else, it's all wrong"

http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aB1rZ3D_460sv.mp4

That link made me laugh. It shows a typical class of people in the UK who are generally on the dole, hardly has any education and bitter with every thing. They are generally racists and blame any one non-white for their problems. That video clip sums it up nicely.

CP, do you honestly believe its all about the Muslims? How will Brexit stop muslims from war torn countries coming to the UK for asylum anyway? People voted to leave the EU, not to stop accepting asylum applications. Phil's post above summed it up nicely.

[Andres125sx]

1. No more muslim or foreign drivers stealing jobs in British teams: say goodbye to Alonso, who probably is half Romani as most Spaniards have some "gitano" blood.

I know you were just kidding, but as an spaniard myself sorry but I can´t read this without replying. No, gitanos are just a small fraction of spaniards, around 1%

But if you say the same about muslim blood, I couldn´t reply, after 7 centuries with the Iberian peninsula occupied almost entirely by muslims there would be no arguments



BTW, I´m glad to read from you, when I´ve seen your nick it´s been a nice surprise, it´s been a long time since our A-pillar and porous asphalt discussions

[Andres125sx]

“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” ~ Isaac Asimov

That quote is brilliant! =D>

[Andres125sx]

The other is politicians and their advisors. In theory they are controlled by being repeatedly put up for election. But being experts in the above their ability to avoid the true consequences of their deceitfulness is unsurprisingly good.

So, in my opinion, this referendum was decided based on which group could frame the best substitute questions, supported or otherwise by lies. Control over this was pretty much impossible particularly when, in general, the major media outlets were partial and conniving.

Is that different from any other standard elections?

That´s IMHO the worst part of democracy, nothing is perfect and this, as its main drawback IMO, sometimes derange me

We´re suffering this in Spain now we new populists, the worst part is when you talk with some of their followers and they say: "that´s what politicians have always done". And you have to shut up because that´s true

[FoxHound]

Knowing the political landscape in Switzerland, I would assume many of the reasons that many many voted in favor of Brexit are rather similar to what is happening here.
.....

So where am I heading with this? It's rather simple: Having cheap labor is a two edged sword. What are some of the consequences? When jobs become as devalued as they are (as a result of all that supply of potential people and EU citizens willing to work those jobs for less salary), you sooner or later have to deal with dividing social classes and sooner or later, that leads to minimum wages being required to tackle poverty.

But hey, it's all fine as long as it's good for the "economy" right?

At least here in Switzerland, you can tell that people have had enough. The economy is important no doubt, but at what cost? .........

So I guess where I am heading with this, is that life itself can not be solely measured in the value of money or economic strength.

Whats happening in the UK has almost nothing to do with the EU.
The EU is a blue chip club for business deals and opening international corridors of business a single country would struggle to attain.

In the 1950s and 60s Britain was subject of immigrants from India and Jamaica.
Did they come for no apparent reason, or to fit into some multi cultural experiment?
No sir, they came to clean and serve.

Jobs the majority of British felt too common.
And from first hand experience Phil, I'll tell you what happens.

My girlfriend manages cleaning for a well known swedish store that specialises in furnishings, at very reasonable prices.
She has 4 stores to look after.
At each of these stores, they are inundated with english cv's for work.

Yet the workforce is made up of 80% polish/euro/african/asian workforce.

An example of locals being overlooked some may cry.
Looking deeper, these applicants are merely applying and going through the process to appease their benefits officer.
Some even go so far as getting through to training, bit then demonstrate such abject motivation and diligence, that they are asked not to return to work.

When its the businness deciding, the claimant can continue receiving his benefits. Its pays to be an idiot in the uk.
And, through the generations, this idiocy has been allowed to grow like a tumour.

Another example, and one the foreigners quickly cottoned on to, was having kids.
College girls get banged up and are guaranteed a council house for free and cash to spend by the government.

The socialist benefit system in this country has grown a large populous of completely dependent families and communities, not individuals, but familes and communities!
These continue to grow in number, and in so doing, in power and voice.

I used to joke about it a few years ago. But I'm serious as a heart attack now, idiocracy is upon us.

[henry]

The other is politicians and their advisors. In theory they are controlled by being repeatedly put up for election. But being experts in the above their ability to avoid the true consequences of their deceitfulness is unsurprisingly good.

So, in my opinion, this referendum was decided based on which group could frame the best substitute questions, supported or otherwise by lies. Control over this was pretty much impossible particularly when, in general, the major media outlets were partial and conniving.

Is that different from any other standard elections?

That´s IMHO the worst part of democracy, nothing is perfect and this, as its main drawback IMO, sometimes derange me

We´re suffering this in Spain now we new populists, the worst part is when you talk with some of their followers and they say: "that´s what politicians have always done". And you have to shut up because that´s true

Sadly i fear you are right. because of their increasingly professional use of behavioural psychology it is hard to trust any of them. It is easier to assume they are all liars seeking power at any cost. A cost paid by others.

I am perhaps deluded in thinking that a Proportional Representation electoral system tones things down. Ensuring that no one group can feel they have an absolute mandate in the way UK governments do.

I am embarrassed by my politicians, but you know, they don't care.

[Vasconia]

1. No more muslim or foreign drivers stealing jobs in British teams: say goodbye to Alonso, who probably is half Romani as most Spaniards have some "gitano" blood.

I know you were just kidding, but as an spaniard myself sorry but I can´t read this without replying. No, gitanos are just a small fraction of spaniards, around 1%

But if you say the same about muslim blood, I couldn´t reply, after 7 centuries with the Iberian peninsula occupied almost entirely by muslims there would be no arguments

Unless if you live in the northern area as myself and Alonso haha.

The mixing betwen gipsy people and others is minium in the northen area. And I dont want to comment what sort of people are the ones who do it because I would sound politically incorrect.

Anyway, just to clarify I have good relation with the patriarchs of the gipsy group in my town. Sadly the young people are more retard, but hey, its happens too with the non-gipsy people.

About the Brexit, I am sorry for this but its funny to see how the lies of the Brexit side start to surface.

I dont expect any change in F1 because of Brexit, so no problem for me as a F1 fan.