Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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Facts Only
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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I'm assuming that it either wont be a "F1" power unit or the car will be a Ferrar FXX style factiry run toy. Why? Well tafter all the secrecy around the current F1 PU's they aren't going to stick one in a car on sale to the general (albeit very rich) public.

I suspect when they say "F1 Drivetrain" what they mean a 1.6l V6 Turbo with and MGUK and MGUH but with exactly zero actual F1 parts on it. Without the fuel flow limitations and the endless quest for weight saving mandated by F1 they will be able to make the same power but with a much longer lifespan and a more usueable and durable drive.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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Facts Only wrote:I'm assuming that it either wont be a "F1" power unit or the car will be a Ferrar FXX style factiry run toy. Why? Well tafter all the secrecy around the current F1 PU's they aren't going to stick one in a car on sale to the general (albeit very rich) public.

I suspect when they say "F1 Drivetrain" what they mean a 1.6l V6 Turbo with and MGUK and MGUH but with exactly zero actual F1 parts on it. Without the fuel flow limitations and the endless quest for weight saving mandated by F1 they will be able to make the same power but with a much longer lifespan and a more usueable and durable drive.
To quote Thomas Weber
I am very excited to officially confirm: our next big thing at AMG is already in the pipeline. We are going to create an AMG performance hybrid featuring our Formula 1 drivetrain technology. Under the lead of AMG, our performance companies will join forces and create the most efficient and, at the same time, the best-performing and most spectacular AMG of all time; some might even call it a hypercar. But no matter what you call it, it will definitely show how we will take our performance brand into the future with extremely efficient and intelligent drivetrain technology. Of course, there will be no compromises in terms of the emotional appeal of this car.
Now alot of this is the usual PR gumph, but officials are also quoted as saying...
AMG's hypercar will be powered by the ‘entire current Formula 1 powertrain,’
Confirming a 2016 F1 spec 1.6 litre V6 with MGU-K and MGU-H systems.

I would add that it won't be a straight lift out of a W07 straight into this monster.... there will be inevitable compromises. But not as much as some have feared.

Toby Moers alludes to it:
Our F1 engine is far more durable than many people expect and if you look at the load it must take in an F1 race compared to how it’s likely to be used in a street-legal machine, you can see it’s going to have a lot less work to do
I'd imagine the ICE part of the engine to have different software, and a lower rev limit. With the Hybrid part being redeveloped using the same methodology of the F1 car's system to compensate for differing targets.
And this is the whole issue surrounding build. Targets.
You cannot design an F1 engined car for the road, because F1 and road are entities with differing targets. By default, designing and F1 engined car for the road will lead to compromise.
F1 cars do not do 10-30 lap blasts, and then stored for 6 months until the next session.
Equally track day cars or even Hypercars are not used for 600km's every 2 weeks.

To put into perspective, Bugatti Hypercars on the market rarely have more than a few thousand miles on them when they are put up for sale.
A rare EB110 has 1000 miles on it after 14 years, making 71 miles on average each year.
A Veyron has 2200 miles after 8 years, making 275miles average per annum.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/used ... earch/true

If we relay this into other £1 million plus cars, he Ferrari Enzo average is about 5,000 miles on an average 12 year old car.
Or roughly 400 miles a year.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/used ... new%2Cused

The F40 has an average of 400 miles P/A over the last 24 years! :shock: :shock:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/used ... new%2Cused

If we look at the average designated lifespan of a Merc V6 Turbo, it's about 5 venues, or 3000kms. In testing, Mercedes did 6121kms on a single engine without issues.
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/ ... on-testing

If we can assume they were using a different engine mode to get data on tyres etc, in a more highly strung environment to the usual track day or commute(winter testing), but still bagging some very quick times, then it's entirely plausible that this engine can be made roadworthy with some necessary modifications.. Especially when you consider that Moers suggest the engine will be doing a lot less work than in F1 applications.

So while we know little to nothing, I cannot disagree. But it's food for thought, and a plausible idea for this car to have near as dammit F1 engine humming in the back.
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Paul
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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There is still a lot of maintenance that is needed for F1 engines to do those 6Mm. Starting with preheating before actually starting them.

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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Paul wrote:There is still a lot of maintenance that is needed for F1 engines to do those 6Mm. Starting with preheating before actually starting them.
I won't argue there isn't.

It goes to prove that a direct transplant from F1 car to £3m hypercar is not perfectly possible. I'd be pretty peeved if my £3m investment needed 10+ minutes of preheating before I could start the damn thing.
But then I'd imagine AMG would know this.
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Facts Only
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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To quote Thomas Weber

“I am very excited to officially confirm: our next big thing at AMG is already in the pipeline. We are going to create an AMG performance hybrid featuring our Formula 1 drivetrain technology"

Thats the get out clause right there, specifically "Formula 1 drivetrain technology", not "A Formula 1 Drivetrain"

As said it either wont have an F1 powertrain or it will be a 'loan' car to very carefully selected customers like the Ferrari FXX is. They aren't going to let people take a current F1 PU home to their garage are they? They wont even let people take proper pictures of one, let alone sell people one to do what they please with. Also as already mentioned are they going to intall all of the support systems in each customers garage and an HPP engineer to get it running?
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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Facts Only wrote:To quote Thomas Weber

“I am very excited to officially confirm: our next big thing at AMG is already in the pipeline. We are going to create an AMG performance hybrid featuring our Formula 1 drivetrain technology"

Thats the get out clause right there, specifically "Formula 1 drivetrain technology", not "A Formula 1 Drivetrain"

As said it either wont have an F1 powertrain or it will be a 'loan' car to very carefully selected customers like the Ferrari FXX is. They aren't going to let people take a current F1 PU home to their garage are they? They wont even let people take proper pictures of one, let alone sell people one to do what they please with. Also as already mentioned are they going to intall all of the support systems in each customers garage and an HPP engineer to get it running?
The get out clause is apt here, for reasons I have been over. You simply don't use an F1 engined roadcar, the way an F1 car is used.
And it's also appropriate to change the engine for the precise reason at the bottom of your reply.
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bill shoe
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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If I remember correctly, you can buy a recent-model Moto GP bike (Ducati?, can't remember) but by contract you are not allowed to do any adjustment, maintenance, repair, or operation of the bike by yourself. You must pay the official Ducati legacy crew to fly in and do this for you. I figure the current hypercars will be the same.

So if these cars will only be operated by professional manufacturer crews and will do a few miles per year, mostly off public roads, then I think an F1 powertrain would do just fine.

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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Car and Driver seem to have asked Tobias Moers the right question....
We’re going to use the powertrain of the Formula 1 car. We’re going to use Formula 1 technology like it is. We have to adapt it, but it’s going to be the 1.6-liter V-6. We’re not talking about ‘inspired by,’ it’s going to be that engine. It’s the power pack, the batteries—it’s the most efficient engine I know of in terms of dealing with thermal losses.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/mercedes-a ... e-details/

Read this in the jalopnik comments section and thought I'd share it's poignancy....
The Venn diagram of the people who will spend $2M+ on AMG Hypercar and those who will use it in the regime that necessitates engine rebuild every few hundred miles consists of two circles drawn on the opposite walls of a very large room
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Tim.Wright
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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If we are quoting the comments section of Jalopnik now we might as well close this whole thread and go home...
Not the engineer at Force India

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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Tim.Wright wrote:If we are quoting the comments section of Jalopnik now we might as well close this whole thread and go home...

I assume you didnt read the comment and just switched off at the mere mention of Jalopnik.
And that's a shame.

Because had you read the comment, you'd see its relevance for pretty much any car costing 7 figures plus.
Aside from that, your snobbery does a fine job of killing discussion.
JET set

Facts Only
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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Whether is a Jalopnik comment or not I thinks its completely incorrect. Ferrai have absolutely no trouble in charging £3million for a car that they only let you drive when they want you to. A large amount of hyper cars never go anywhere at all, they end up in private collections as museum pieces or held at places like Mercedes world.

The ven diagram of people who will spend £2million an a car and those who will accept a well orchestrated running and maintainance regime is two circles pretty much on top of each other.

As I've said, if this car has a real F1 Powertrain it wont be for general sale, it will be sold(or leased) to selected customers and likely held by Mercedes when not in use.
"A pretentious quote taken out of context to make me look deep" - Some old racing driver

ScottB
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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Facts Only wrote:Whether is a Jalopnik comment or not I thinks its completely incorrect. Ferrai have absolutely no trouble in charging £3million for a car that they only let you drive when they want you to. A large amount of hyper cars never go anywhere at all, they end up in private collections as museum pieces or held at places like Mercedes world.

The ven diagram of people who will spend £2million an a car and those who will accept a well orchestrated running and maintainance regime is two circles pretty much on top of each other.

As I've said, if this car has a real F1 Powertrain it wont be for general sale, it will be sold(or leased) to selected customers and likely held by Mercedes when not in use.
I would imagine so, lest someone from Ferrari, Renault or Honda realise they could buy said car just to poke about in the engine...

George-Jung
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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But than again, if they are really going to use the F1 powertrain.. could other teams protest, because it would require MB to test the car together with that powertrain?

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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Facts Only wrote:Whether is a Jalopnik comment or not I thinks its completely incorrect. Ferrai have absolutely no trouble in charging £3million for a car that they only let you drive when they want you to. . .
And they were sold to a pre-existing clientele, something Ferrari spent over 60 years forging.
As a demonstration, the Pagani Zonda sold around 200 units with 15 of those being earmarked the track only Zonda R.
10 of those 15 were never built, and of the 5 all were used for racing or demo(PR) purposes then later going onto private ownership.
5 of 190 gives you roughly 2.5% target demographic of an already rarefied market.

Which goes directly against this...
Facts Only wrote:The ven diagram of people who will spend £2million an a car and those who will accept a well orchestrated running and maintainance regime is two circles pretty much on top of each other.
If you gonna sell a a multi million dollar car, you are limiting further sales by making it track only. I don't see why this is "completely incorrect"?
Facts Only wrote:As I've said, if this car has a real F1 Powertrain it wont be for general sale, it will be sold(or leased) to selected customers and likely held by Mercedes when not in use.
You are stating with absolute certainty.

I'll wait and see what AMG say, rather than be absolutely sure of anything regarding it's plan before the facts come out.
ScottB wrote:I would imagine so, lest someone from Ferrari, Renault or Honda realise they could buy said car just to poke about in the engine...
Toward the end of 2018(R50's target release date), 2016's 1.6 litre V6 will hold limited value, perhaps sentimental maybe.
We've seen in the space of 3 years that these engines have gone from 780bhp to around 980bhp.

Then you see the price of the car is over £2 million. Renault have already bagged a few Merc HPE guys at around half that price. These dudes will be far more valuable to them moving forward, than a car with a 2 or 3 year old engine.
Particularly when you think that there will now be unlimited engine development from 2017 in F1.

But even if there was anything to be gained, clients are likely to be Benz diehards already pre-selected a la Ferrari. And if paranoia is prevalent, seal the engines or have measures in place that alert Mercedes to unauthorised tampering.
40k Lexus have such systems in place today, and griff lock will sell you a system that will not only tell you it's being molested, but where, and how. All for under $500.
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basti313
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Re: Mercedes F1 engined Hypercar

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Paul wrote:There is still a lot of maintenance that is needed for F1 engines to do those 6Mm. Starting with preheating before actually starting them.
To get this engine road going, they need different pistons. It will still be the same engine, but with much more heavy "usual" pistons with "usual" piston rings. This will solve a lot of possible problems like the necessary preheating by giving enough clearance and will add a lot of lifetime.
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