Audi has announced a new motorsport strategy, in which it has outlined the termination of its FIA WEC commitment, including the 24 Hours of Le Mans, at the end of the 2016 season. Instead Audi is taking up a factory-backed commitment in the all-electric Formula E racing series.
Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
zac510 wrote:Manoah2u, it's not a children's "connect the dots" problem that you can solve by connecting lines to various companies. There's really just no magical mystery to solve anyway. The've quit, that's that.
There is no 'childerens connect the dots' being performed. a simple analysis with a theoretical conduct into a -though marginally small - possibility that Audi will end up in F1.
It is no secret they were actively persuing a direction into F1 and things were set in motion to achieve that but then they bailed and that affected F1 in various ways. Historic fact.
It is also fact that there have been statements Audi / VW is not actively persuing an F1 entry at this point, though i'm not entirely sure whether these statements were solely on the mentioning of a 'works' outfit. Not striving to be a works team does not equal that they arent going to be an engine supplier.
It's a simple reasoning on the potential of Audi getting into F1. They surely wouldn't whilst the WEC/LMP1 project was still 'active', with that gone, it is not unheared of to strive towards F1.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
zac510 wrote:Manoah2u, it's not a children's "connect the dots" problem that you can solve by connecting lines to various companies. There's really just no magical mystery to solve anyway. The've quit, that's that.
There is no 'childerens connect the dots' being performed. a simple analysis with a theoretical conduct into a -though marginally small - possibility that Audi will end up in F1.
It is no secret they were actively persuing a direction into F1 and things were set in motion to achieve that but then they bailed and that affected F1 in various ways. Historic fact.
It is also fact that there have been statements Audi / VW is not actively persuing an F1 entry at this point, though i'm not entirely sure whether these statements were solely on the mentioning of a 'works' outfit. Not striving to be a works team does not equal that they arent going to be an engine supplier.
It's a simple reasoning on the potential of Audi getting into F1. They surely wouldn't whilst the WEC/LMP1 project was still 'active', with that gone, it is not unheared of to strive towards F1.
there's the small issue of the tens of billions in fines and buybacks from Diesel-gate
zac510 wrote:Manoah2u, it's not a children's "connect the dots" problem that you can solve by connecting lines to various companies. There's really just no magical mystery to solve anyway. The've quit, that's that.
There is no 'childerens connect the dots' being performed. a simple analysis with a theoretical conduct into a -though marginally small - possibility that Audi will end up in F1.
It is no secret they were actively persuing a direction into F1 and things were set in motion to achieve that but then they bailed and that affected F1 in various ways. Historic fact.
It is also fact that there have been statements Audi / VW is not actively persuing an F1 entry at this point, though i'm not entirely sure whether these statements were solely on the mentioning of a 'works' outfit. Not striving to be a works team does not equal that they arent going to be an engine supplier.
It's a simple reasoning on the potential of Audi getting into F1. They surely wouldn't whilst the WEC/LMP1 project was still 'active', with that gone, it is not unheared of to strive towards F1.
there's the small issue of the tens of billions in fines and buybacks from Diesel-gate
I too thought about the fines but the stone cold facts of the matter are that unless Audi/VW can re define themselves, and get into a real positive spotlight, they are in a real mess. You might get fines but you still have to market yourself.
Formula E and Hybrid F1 era provide that opportunity. A Formula E works team and a Formula 1 engine?
A large part of their LMP marketing was to promote their diesel, and with that to stand out from the rest of the crowd. They stuck with the diesel even when it was the worst choice, because it was their marketing strategy. Dieselgate and the current economic market has rendered the promotion of diesel useless
F1 provides no base for such a marketing, you are essentially just another manufacturer making the same PU Mercedes, Honda, Ferrari and Renault make. FE on the other hand provides a platform where you can show your electric prowess. And not only that; You can show that you are the best in making them as you are sharing the field with lots of other manufacturers.
Nobody is doubting Audi is making a decent choice by participating in Formula E.
F1 no base for such marketing? Doesn't ring any bell that there's a reason why Mercedes, Renault, Honda and Ferrari participate?
And again, the discussion about Audi aiming a possible future F1 entry is still based on the same engine formula that they themselves wanted
to see to concider entering F1; an inline 4 cylinder turbo. There really is no reason for Audi to enter the V6T format as it is now. However,
if they can run an inline 4 or 5 cylinder [turbo] then things become rather different entirely.
Matter of fact, that would make it more interesting for other manufacturers too to start making F1 engines [again].
tokens are gone next year, so that big 'brake' is out the window. nevertheless, the current F1 world is too costly to enter with the goal of being
competitive. Obviously, Audi can't accept being a backmarker, so they'll HAVE to invest HUGE sums of money to be competitive. Thats the big
problem offcourse.
However, with F1 now in different [American] hands, and the format slowly changing, there might be already things in motion that we haven't been
informed about yet.
Is it nothing but speculation? damn right it is just speculation.
Is it based upon the desire to see Audi in F1? damn right people are curious to see what might happen.
Is it because there are too little engine manufacturers in F1 today? damn right there should be more suppliers.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
wesley123 wrote:F1 provides no opportunity whatsoever.
A large part of their LMP marketing was to promote their diesel, and with that to stand out from the rest of the crowd. They stuck with the diesel even when it was the worst choice, because it was their marketing strategy. Dieselgate and the current economic market has rendered the promotion of diesel useless
F1 provides no base for such a marketing, you are essentially just another manufacturer making the same PU Mercedes, Honda, Ferrari and Renault make. FE on the other hand provides a platform where you can show your electric prowess. And not only that; You can show that you are the best in making them as you are sharing the field with lots of other manufacturers.
Zero opportunity? Wow.
Merc spends 1 billion +
Red bull spends 1 billion +
Honda hundreds of millions...
Someone should tell these companies there is zero opportunity to promote thier brands in F1!
wesley123 wrote:F1 provides no opportunity whatsoever.
A large part of their LMP marketing was to promote their diesel, and with that to stand out from the rest of the crowd. They stuck with the diesel even when it was the worst choice, because it was their marketing strategy. Dieselgate and the current economic market has rendered the promotion of diesel useless
F1 provides no base for such a marketing, you are essentially just another manufacturer making the same PU Mercedes, Honda, Ferrari and Renault make. FE on the other hand provides a platform where you can show your electric prowess. And not only that; You can show that you are the best in making them as you are sharing the field with lots of other manufacturers.
Zero opportunity? Wow.
Merc spends 1 billion +
Red bull spends 1 billion +
Honda hundreds of millions...
Someone should tell these companies there is zero opportunity to promote thier brands in F1!
I'll quote myself here;
"A large part of their LMP marketing was to promote their diesel, and with that to stand out from the rest of the crowd. They stuck with the diesel even when it was the worst choice, because it was their marketing strategy. Dieselgate and the current economic market has rendered the promotion of diesel useless"
With Porsche already in Lemans with Gas it would have been difficult to differentiate the technologies of the engines.
Red Bull would have been their way into F1 but the emission scandal has scuttled it. They have to wait a while before they can put the proposal back on the table.
FE is good but only as a local ad vehicle to race goers and not as a global marketing and tech demonstrator.
Diesel is dead in Europe. Netherlands ended low taxes on low co2 emission company cars, which were mostly diesels. Only favouring full electric now. France is getting rid of diesels in the city's. Germany is becoming one big solar farm, they must be switching to electric cars really soon.
There's still room for diesels, the market on stand-alone combustion engines will fade in a couple of years.
Hybrids win terrain over diesel engines fast, but there is still market for diesel hybrids, which will at some point become
widely available. It's just how it works; if as a manufacturer (dont forget the influence from the oil lobby) you immediately
start out with diesel hybrids, you completely lose out on millions [billions really] by passing the opportunity on making gasoline
hybrids. at this moment i believe volvo is making the only diesel hybrid, though i could be wrong.
a gasoline-hybrid is more 'economical' then 'current' diesels, which is rather due to the current 'fashion' there and all the 'environmentalist' taxes and benefits on it.
when the gasoline-hybrid card is ran enough, and technology reaches a point where there's less room for improvement for the paired combustion engine, then the
diesel alternative will pop up, if only to keep the diesel demand alive. expect a sudden rise in oil prices to push people in buying cheaper diesel hybrids over more
costly gasoline hybrids. Diesel Hybrids will have a higher selling price compared to gasoline hybrids at that point, but gasoline price will be high enough to benefit
from the lower diesel price.
in other words, diesel has still a long way to go, and i do see the possibility that at a certain point, F1 is going to step over from gasoline combustion engine hybrids
to diesel combustion engine hybrids before eventually fully stepping over into electronic engines.
it's just how 'society' works.
Also, diesel-powered cars are going to get a lot cheaper soon with hybrids on the big rise, so diesel is far from dead. It's the old diesel cars that aren't allowed into big
cities, not the modern ones. As for the pollution from diesels - gasoline engines of today generate far less pollution like they did back in the 70's and 80's. In a dozen
years, diesel pollution will drop significantly aswell.
It's all about the big lobby's and agenda's being served to 'their' will, simple as that.
The reason Audi pulls out is simple, Porsche entered. one could have seen that coming from miles away, with or without dieselgate.
BTW, the mere thought that all the fines and callbacks on this dieselgate scandal actually has a real impact on the VAG concern is doubtfull. Are we talking of billions
of dollars of unwanted/unexpected costs? yes and no. If you really think VAG didn't calculate in this 'setback' when they in advance decided to 'trick' the people with
the false emissions then you severely underestimate how companies this big operate. It has been calculated and decided in advance to take 'the risk' and thus there
are finances available to 'cope' with this, atleast largely.
Don't forget the 'any news is good news'. VW is being talked about more than ever since the dieselgate 'scandal' , only promoting the concern more. They're playing it
smart by tricking people into taking measures to 'greenify' their brand to 'make up' and 'learn' from this 'scandal'.
I'm not a tinfoil hatter but one could wonder on why Porsche was suddenly pushed back into LeMans. Atleast it is a brilliant 'backup' mechanism. There have been sources
claiming all of it is a well-orchestraded [is that a word?] event, but again, i wouldn't want to go tinfoil hat there. It is an interesting theory though.
At this specific moment, in the following 3-4 years, Audi will not enter F1. None of the VAG will. Simple as that. With Porsche where Audi used to be, you can kiss porsche
entering F1 goodbye aswell, and i don't think Porsche is going to end that stint soon, especially not with Ford GT coming in in the future providing some potential competition,
even though Ford is a whole different market. VW is not the type of brand that fits the F1 world, Audi however is and is slightly comparable to BMW in F1.
In 3-4 years, we'll be around 2020 where it was already suggested a while ago the current engine format is able to last well into 2020, and up for debate afterwards.
After 2020 we might see some 'new interest' in the engine formula and it could go all sorts of directions. Scrapping the V6T i think is too soon compared to the lenght of which
it's predecessors had. However, to attract new manufacturers and boost the sport something probably will have to happen by then, which is why my suggestion is that by then
the before proposed inline 4 cylinder and perhaps 5 cylinder could be something to look into. If that happens, the inline 4 cylinder, as a choice between V6T and i4(T), then I do
think there is an interest for manufacturers like Audi and BMW to enter alongside Mercedes, Honda, Renault and Ferrari. Perhaps Toyota will concider aswell as Ford, whether
that be in the Cosworth or in the Ecoboost 'label'.
Untill that moment in time, there are 3-4 years of technological advancement to gain in the form of the electrical engines aswell as the batteries. Mclaren Applied Technologies
as far as i understand another member mentioned has gotten the Formula E tender under their belt, so atleast from Mclaren there will be advancement. RedBull was 'fighting'
for that same tender, so expect them to have a certain amount of knowledge aswell, and that's not even delving into other hybrid manufacturers.
I think the Audi ship has sailed for RedBull, and RedBull will continue their partnership with Aston Martin and developing their own engine to become a manufacturer themselves
in the end.
Audi has plenty of options: Sauber, Force India, Manor, Haas. So does BMW should they decide to go into that general direction by 2020, and one never really knows whether there
is a possibility Mclaren 'breaks' with Honda again in the future.
Meanwhile yes, it's all speculation.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"
wesley123 wrote:F1 provides no opportunity whatsoever.
A large part of their LMP marketing was to promote their diesel, and with that to stand out from the rest of the crowd. They stuck with the diesel even when it was the worst choice, because it was their marketing strategy. Dieselgate and the current economic market has rendered the promotion of diesel useless
F1 provides no base for such a marketing, you are essentially just another manufacturer making the same PU Mercedes, Honda, Ferrari and Renault make. FE on the other hand provides a platform where you can show your electric prowess. And not only that; You can show that you are the best in making them as you are sharing the field with lots of other manufacturers.
Zero opportunity? Wow.
Merc spends 1 billion +
Red bull spends 1 billion +
Honda hundreds of millions...
Someone should tell these companies there is zero opportunity to promote thier brands in F1!
I'll quote myself here;
"A large part of their LMP marketing was to promote their diesel, and with that to stand out from the rest of the crowd. They stuck with the diesel even when it was the worst choice, because it was their marketing strategy. Dieselgate and the current economic market has rendered the promotion of diesel useless"
Audi ran E-tron branded LMP1 cars...
Nothing stopping them from running E-tron Petrol hybrids...
FE does make more sense though and I don't believe we will see Audi enter F1.
Lamborghini however would be the VAG brand that aligns with F1. If VAG enters expect that to be the branding.
Competition with Ferraris on and off the track would be a great marketing ploy. Given that by volume Lamborghini is much more exclusive than Ferrari and Ferraris weakened position in the sport it would be good timing.
Struggling to see how Audi quitting LMP1 and reducing their sporting budget means they will turn up in F1.
Audi are making big cuts, not just in motorsport, they are even abandoning engineering their own platforms; future Audi's will be based on VW and Porsche running gear.
Formula E is cheap and suits the brand story they want to tell. Audi, or any other VW Group brand won't be coming near F1 for years, if ever.
It will be interesting to see in 20-30 years about how we look back at Audi's success at Le Mans, given that they achieved so many of their victories during probably the least competitive period of Le Mans history. One thing they will surely be remembered for though is setting the gold standard in impressive pit stop repairs. No matter what happened on track, you always had the belief that after 5 minutes in the pit's the car would be as good as new. This is one of my personal favourites:
Fyi guys. Porsche and Audi spend 500 000 000 (half billion) us dollars EACH to run lmp1 per year.
To trasform audi to petrol will cost 3 times of the sum above. If there is Porsche there is no sense for vw to spend such money + dieselgate problems + non bright future for diesel engines on cars. Thats it.
FE is cheap, promotes e drivetrain and lets audi get quite good marketing feedback.
kudryavchik wrote:Fyi guys. Porsche and Audi spend 500 000 000 (half billion) us dollars EACH to run lmp1 per year.
To trasform audi to petrol will cost 3 times of the sum above. If there is Porsche there is no sense for vw to spend such money + dieselgate problems + non bright future for diesel engines on cars. Thats it.
FE is cheap, promotes e drivetrain and lets audi get quite good marketing feedback.
I like the post, but where did you get that it would cost 1.5billion to swap their LMP to a petrol engine?
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970
“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher
