Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Post Reply
User avatar
Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

5-10 seconds penalty for anyone cutting a corner

zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

Really the best solution to this is to just accept that some tracks have walls and some don't, and embrace that variety. Accept that the stewards work within guidelines and finally thank that the championship is not 1 race long, it's 21 so 1 corner does not win a championship. No sports or referees are perfect and that's there are dozens of matches in a season, to minimise these effects.
hollus wrote:I think most people in this thread agree to the conceptual elegance of a wall, me included. But let's admit it, we are not getting any new walls where currently there is none. Not in the 21st century. 20th century racing was great... but it won't happen in the 21st, and I, personally, intend to live in the 21st century from now on. So, other than real walls, what's the next best?
Walls are bad for television too. If you put a wall in, you're only going to get long, front-on shots of the cars down the 'channel' of the track, which people also hate (see other threads for that viewpoint).

User avatar
Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

I'd argue the contrary. You can put camera + audio equipment in the walls to get much better angles and sound.

Not to mention (for the 100th time) that the walls massively increase the impression of speed - that's why the car's look faster at Montreal and through the swimming pool at Monaco. The walls give a fixed point of reference. Plus you can visually see which drivers are more precise by how much margin they leave to the walls.
Not the engineer at Force India

zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

True, that is an excellent counter-point. Montreal has a great balance of walls and non-walled corners.

mrluke
33
Joined: 22 Nov 2013, 20:31

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

zac510 wrote:Really the best solution to this is to just accept that some tracks have walls and some don't, and embrace that variety. Accept that the stewards work within guidelines and finally thank that the championship is not 1 race long, it's 21 so 1 corner does not win a championship. No sports or referees are perfect and that's there are dozens of matches in a season, to minimise these effects.
hollus wrote:I think most people in this thread agree to the conceptual elegance of a wall, me included. But let's admit it, we are not getting any new walls where currently there is none. Not in the 21st century. 20th century racing was great... but it won't happen in the 21st, and I, personally, intend to live in the 21st century from now on. So, other than real walls, what's the next best?
+1

Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

zac510 wrote:True, that is an excellent counter-point. Montreal has a great balance of walls and non-walled corners.
one would like to think that, and it's partially true, but one only has to look at the gigantic fail that was the Baku GP.
It looked slow AF and was gigantically boring, despite being the track where the walls were closer than any other track,
and having the highest top speed on any 'street' track on the calender.

it's all about presentation and camera positions.

i'm a clear advocate for visorcams.

Image
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

It's all so simple... Just enforce the rules and do it on every corner of every race.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22
Contact:

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

Tim.Wright wrote:In my subjective opinion, black flagging a driver for transgressing track limits is the most contrived cop-out I can think of. Motorsport is an activity that takes place in the midst of the physical world. The result should be dictated by driver input, the vehicle's response (F=ma) and that's it. Every time you start adding 'administrative sanctions' like time penalties for sporting transgressions you are moving the sport away from the laws of physics and towards a contrived 'result by committee' type activity.

Think for a moment of all the administrative gotchas of black flagging a driver for track limits. What if he was pushed out by another car? Do you take into account who was at fault for that previous incident before ruling on the track limits? What if a driver was avoiding debris? What if the driver claims he had a vehicle malfunction? What if the driver claims he was letting by lapped traffic? Are you going to penalise drivers in these cases or are you going to write up the necessary 10-20 extra rules detailing all the exceptions?
IMO this post hit all the points.

Regardless if we are talking about "black flagging" or imposing more minor time penalties for overstepping track limits - it always comes down to circumstance and context. And that context will create discussion, arguments and a lot of grey in the end as pointed above by Tim.

Better to either put walls there (then if an accident happens, we'll be discussing how and why and who might be responsible for it) or if there are run-off areas, to ensure that no advantage can be gained but ends up in a disadvantage. Then the problem solves itself without additional rules or stewarding becoming an additional factor: Someone goes off, loses time and is punished at the same time.

This topic is a perfect example on how people can't disagree on an adequate form of punishment because the rate of advantage or disadvantage gained by going off track is unique to a particular corner, circumstance and situation. In one example (Monaco) it will usually result in a DNF and safety car. On other tracks with gravel or run-off areas, depending on when and how, it might vary from zero lost to a couple of places right down to a DNF. I'd prefer to leave the "punishment" down to the realm of physics and the layout of the track and leave it at the discretion of the stewards to deem if going off track in a particular situation is a punishable offense or not. If it happens to a car driving 20 seconds up ahead with no competitors, it shouldn't really matter.

As such; the explanation given by Charlie Whiting in Brazils Thursday Conference on the 2 events (Hamilton lap 1, Verstappen) in Mexico seemed sound and reasonable. We don't want too much nitpicking and interference, but every now and then, we want to see them step in and decide if an advantage was gained that resulted in either keeping or losing a position. The biggest unfortunate situation was that the track at corner 1 wasn't blocked off (with chicanes) to avoid going off-track becoming an advantage. Had that been taken care off, it would have been a non-issue to begin with and therein also lies the simple solution; Not more rules, not more stewarding - better designed tracks for less steward intervention!

I think an easy to understand and applicable rule would be that a car going off track should never result in a better sector or lap time. Similarly to a yellow zone - if a car does go quicker (measured by the telemetry data), it should result in a time penalty given automatically. With this, you cover off the eventualities of who is to blame by going off track. Go off the track, regardless of the circumstance; take care not to achieve a quicker sector/lap time delta. This will only be possible on a track where the layout enables an off-track to result in gained time (like corner 1 Mexico). All other tracks, it will usually result in a disadvantage as is, so the automatic time penalty will never be applicable anyway.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

F1 has been castrated due to excessive rules that supposedly avoids 'dominiation' and secondly 'danger'.
these 'track limit' penalties are the worst. It reminds me of the absolute frustration of older codemasters F1 and motorport games.

Here you are trying to do your very best in getting a (fast) laptime but somehow, you just slightly hit a white line and its DSQ the lap. all over again.
similar when you accidentally make a braking error, and actually lose time due to it by getting off-track even if its slightly. DSQ the lap. it's frustrating.
Then you're hauling in a lap and a computer AI comes by, cuts you off, and you ever so slightly hit it - penalty.
I literally threw that game out of the window and literally wrote a letter of complaint to which i never heared anything.
A year or 2 later I got my hands on another codemasters racing game, with the hope that they surely have improved over that idiocy, but how wrong was i.
I decided then NEVER IN LIFE ever to buy a codemasters game ever again.

moral of the story; F1 is turning into a codemasters game rulebook. it's insane, and it's hurting and castrating fun, excitment, and racing and above all causes confusion.
if this is not improved, or carries on too long, people will wave F1 goodbye.

as for this 'gentlemen' bs.

Almost all F1 drivers hail Senna as the ultimate F1 'god'. Those who don't choose either Schumacher or Prost. Schumacher was one of the dirtiest racers out there, and Prost was
no saint either. Senna was no gentleman, nor was Schumacher. there were offcourse limits not to cross, sure. But F1 of today is like 'if somebody wants to overtake you, you need
to sit back, bend over and let it go, if they get offtrack, then they couldn't do it and you're lucky.' instead of fighting to the bone.
Real racing is looked upon with frowns and shock, as if something terrible is happening.

I don't see all these 'problems' in F1 existing in any other category. Karting: look at how fair and racy that is. If somebody does something uncalled for, they are confronted by it by
the driver(s) themselves and thats really enough. Only extreme cases need action from 'higher hand' (black flag for example), and that's only happening because of people of which
you really wonder whether they were born with any material in the cranial area.

Anyway, they're adults and capable enough. let them race. stop turning it into a whistle-contest.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

bret191
0
Joined: 21 Nov 2016, 16:21
Location: Arizona to Indiana

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

I have to agree with the codemaster scenario to a point. But, if a car get a advancement in ANY way they should just give a pit stop and go penalty! Because if they F1 take away all the penalties for cutting track it will end up being a free for all on ALL 1st turns and then to the rest of track. I WOULD! Why not? I can cut corner and get a 10th of second advantage, shoot I would be cutting all the corners.
F1 already has a solution in place but they don't us it constantly! F1 rules enforcers are the problem NOT the rules! Admitted some rules are stupid but if F1 had smart COMPETENT officials we wouldn't have these problems. F1 , from the TOP are a bunch of good old boys club, that needs to stop in order for good racing! With the new owners Liberty that for the most part should stop, it has already started with the meeting they have been having. F1 is in for a shake up coming over the next two years thats for sure, everything they have acquired has ended up better and successful. It cant get any worse!

Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

Well, the thing is, if we concider all the past races. in history, that is, and we concider the same arguments we use in the current discussion, then that would mean 'we' would not approve of moves Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso, Piquet, Mansell, Lauda, Hunt, and go on so have made, either. We do however. 'we' nearly worship their legacy, but then now it happens and it's wrong? that's not right. indeed, the nonsense should just stop and just let them drive.

racing just needs some '10 commandments' like 'thou shallt not drive in opposite direction.' though really if you just use 'thou shalt not kill' then nobody is going to run in opposite direction.
using brains and logic will get you far enough, really. the rest is just castration.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

Merod
0
Joined: 23 Nov 2016, 14:52

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

A 1m strip of high gloss Teflon infused paint for the duration of each 'in scope' corner should solve the issue.

kptaylor
0
Joined: 01 Feb 2012, 22:11
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

It's easy enough to enforce chicanes in the runoff area that drivers must drive through before rejoining (i.e. If you blow the corner you must drive around the prescribed "chicane/barrier/bollard") would solve matters. Otherwise rather than walls, you could just add bollards or sponsor signs (breakaway styrofoam-based) that would force a driver to slow or avoid so as not to gain advantage. This should be easiest as it means more sponsor revenue! ;)

However, the underlying problem is a lack of enforcement or an inconsistent enforcement of track limits by Charlie and the stewards. Full time stewards is a great idea towards solving that but the FIA need to take a stand on what is acceptable and not acceptable. I think we all know this, though, so not sure why the FIA doesn't take action themselves. Jean seems to be afraid of making sweeping decisions that might create controversy unlike Max...

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

However, the underlying problem is a lack of enforcement or an inconsistent enforcement of track limits by Charlie and the stewards.
Absolutely right.
There has to be consistency.
No wavering no excuses.
What happens if you do not observe your track limits on the way to work? ACCIDENT!!! Damage...tears..
These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world? And they can't moderate their speed to stay on track?
Hell yeah they should be penalized for even a slight off.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

Re: Track limits, rule enforcements, good sportsmanship etc

Post

Even just a single wheel on the grass during a slide and get a penalty?

Post Reply