450 kph F1

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FW17
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450 kph F1

Postby FW17 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:59 am

F1 has been in the 300 kph bracket for too long

So what would it take for 2017 cars to get to the 400 kph bracket?

Wurz
But I talk of way faster, because we can make cars which go 450 [km/h] and have way more downforce.


Ways to go..........

150kg/h fuel flow
Low drag aero, probably wingless
AWD with front e motors
Last edited by FW17 on Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Greg Locock
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby Greg Locock » Fri Dec 30, 2016 5:14 am

This is called the f1 technical forum. Not f1 mindless wanking forum. So, what would YOU suggest? The easy way to do it would be on circular banked tracks. Fit truck compounds to the tires, back off the aero and you are done.

bhall II
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby bhall II » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:29 am

It's not quite mindless - though OP should have at least posted a link to the relevant article.

Motorsport.com, Dec 29, 2016 wrote:"If I am a visionary for F1, I would make the cars ever safer, but I would than make them way faster," Wurz told Motorsport.com.

"But I talk of way faster, because we can make cars which go 450 [km/h] and have way more downforce. We can then, when the cars are safer, race on the most extreme race tracks, city tracks."

Wurz, who this year lobbied for the 2017 introduction of the Halo cockpit protection before it was ultimately delayed to 2018, believes that a further safety push could allow F1 to do away with a number of current rules and features that make the championship less exciting for its fans.

"We wouldn't need miles of run-off areas, so we wouldn't have the infringements which nobody understands anymore," he continued.

"The sole underlying aspect is that the fan at home needs to sit and think: 'I could never do that. Only the most courageous, talented drivers can do that.'

From my point of view, it was through a relentless push for higher and higher speeds that F1 made a name for itself. At its zenith, it wasn't just the quickest series on the planet, it was the quickest series on the planet by a country mile. I'd love to see that spirit revived.

Venturi floors for "cheap" downforce, active aero for intelligent downforce, wheel fairings and closed cockpits to reduce drag and bolster safety, reduced weight (including refueling), proper tires, automated electronics and/or two-way telemetry to simplify the non-essential aspects of driving...make F1 exotic again!
"Journalists are not often engineers, are not told the truth by the teams. Race engineers ... [would] rather invent a plausible story than convey the truth because the teams don’t want the truth to be told in case it gives away an advantage." —Willem Toet

FW17
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby FW17 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:20 am

bhall II wrote:It's not quite mindless - though OP should have at least posted a link to the relevant article.

Motorsport.com, Dec 29, 2016 wrote:"If I am a visionary for F1, I would make the cars ever safer, but I would than make them way faster," Wurz told Motorsport.com.

"But I talk of way faster, because we can make cars which go 450 [km/h] and have way more downforce. We can then, when the cars are safer, race on the most extreme race tracks, city tracks."

Wurz, who this year lobbied for the 2017 introduction of the Halo cockpit protection before it was ultimately delayed to 2018, believes that a further safety push could allow F1 to do away with a number of current rules and features that make the championship less exciting for its fans.

"We wouldn't need miles of run-off areas, so we wouldn't have the infringements which nobody understands anymore," he continued.

"The sole underlying aspect is that the fan at home needs to sit and think: 'I could never do that. Only the most courageous, talented drivers can do that.'

From my point of view, it was through a relentless push for higher and higher speeds that F1 made a name for itself. At its zenith, it wasn't just the quickest series on the planet, it was the quickest series on the planet by a country mile. I'd love to see that spirit revived.

Venturi floors for "cheap" downforce, active aero for intelligent downforce, wheel fairings and closed cockpits to reduce drag and bolster safety, reduced weight (including refueling), proper tires, automated electronics and/or two-way telemetry to simplify the non-essential aspects of driving...make F1 exotic again!


I am against wheel fairings, closed or partial closed cockpit is ok.

bhall II
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby bhall II » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:07 am

That pretty much makes you against the idea.

Drag is proportional to the square of speed, and the power needed to overcome drag is proportional to the cube of speed. That means you'd need an entirely unreasonable amount of power to push F1-like, open-wheel drag though the air at 450kph. (Think: horsepower in the thousands.)

Here's Gordon Murray's idea of extreme...

Image
(Click to enlarge)
"Journalists are not often engineers, are not told the truth by the teams. Race engineers ... [would] rather invent a plausible story than convey the truth because the teams don’t want the truth to be told in case it gives away an advantage." —Willem Toet

FW17
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby FW17 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:08 am

bhall II wrote:That pretty much makes you against the idea.

Drag is proportional to the square of speed, and the power needed to overcome drag is proportional to the cube of speed. That means you'd need an entirely unreasonable amount of power to push F1-like, open-wheel drag though the air at 450kph. (Think: horsepower in the thousands.)

Here's Gordon Murray's idea of extreme...

http://i.imgur.com/TiKtxxC.jpg
(Click to enlarge)


Well this car did 413 kph


Pingguest
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby Pingguest » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:19 am

With top speeds reaching 450 kilometres per hour and with even more downforce, it is rather questionable whether any human being could cope with the g-forces.

cramr
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby cramr » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:24 am

The problem is not the speed, it's that in the current tracks, you gains more laptime by going faster on the corners and not on the straights, and to do that you need downforce which creates drag that limits the top speed.

Or you have a super powerfull car with super sticky tyres to corner at a super high speeds or you need some kind of "active Aero devices" to change the configuration between straight and corners

bhall II
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby bhall II » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:48 am

FW17 wrote:Well this car did 413 kph

...with no downforce and a cooling layout that would roast an engine in a matter of minutes.

Image
"Journalists are not often engineers, are not told the truth by the teams. Race engineers ... [would] rather invent a plausible story than convey the truth because the teams don’t want the truth to be told in case it gives away an advantage." —Willem Toet

ME4ME
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby ME4ME » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:20 pm

Image
Yes please.

One thing to concider is that Wurz not only mentions high top speed, but also a lot of downforce to gain laptime. I'm not sure how successfull Pirelli would be in producing tyres capable of handling such loads. I think a drastic weight-cut must first happen before such speeds can achieved. The PU would be the main target, given it's minimum weight of 145 kg. The old V10's used to weight more than a third less. That, combined with re-fueling would do wonders in helping Pirelli.

"F1 has to take a hard look at what it wants from an engine," Brawn said in an interview with the FIA's AUTO magazine.

"What we've done in the last few years is align ourselves with road cars. We've got this revolution going on, and the road cars we'll have in five to 10 years' time are going to be very different.

"Can we maintain the technological marvel of F1 but acknowledge that perhaps now is the time to start diverging from where road cars are going? If we don't, logic says we should have electric or fuel-cell F1 cars in a few years' time.

"We have Formula E and that's establishing its place, but for me F1 isn't just a technological demonstration, it's a whole circus, and what's the best way of maintaining that?

"It might be time to say, 'We've had this technological marvel, but we're going to step back and think about what F1 ideally wants from an engine, which may have to contain some technologies that are relevant.'"

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-en ... =1&q=brawn

Andres125sx
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby Andres125sx » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:25 pm

Pingguest wrote:With top speeds reaching 450 kilometres per hour and with even more downforce, it is rather questionable whether any human being could cope with the g-forces.

That´s first thing wich came to my mind too, but then I realiced about a simple solution. Same as they do in Red Bull Air Race, limit max G.

Their problem is the same, planes can produce a lot more Gs than any human can sustain, so they´ve limited G forces to 12 and anyone going further will receive a penalty. For F1 that limit should be around 5-6G, but then they could use active aero wich allow high DF on the corners but also low DF and drag at the straights for blistering top speeds :D

mclaren111
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby mclaren111 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:31 pm

These cars is not future F1 !! :lol: :lol:

More future WEC cars in my mind !! 8) 8)

Tim.Wright
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby Tim.Wright » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:31 am

Greg Locock wrote:This is called the f1 technical forum. Not f1 mindless wanking forum.


Wait, what?
Not the engineer at Force India

Pierce89
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby Pierce89 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:24 am

Tim.Wright wrote:
Greg Locock wrote:This is called the f1 technical forum. Not f1 mindless wanking forum.


Wait, what?

Greg just got lost and thought he was somewhere else. Of course this is the mindless wanking forum. I mean, we're all here aren't we?
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

Pingguest
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Re: 450 kph F1

Postby Pingguest » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:45 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Pingguest wrote:With top speeds reaching 450 kilometres per hour and with even more downforce, it is rather questionable whether any human being could cope with the g-forces.

That´s first thing wich came to my mind too, but then I realiced about a simple solution. Same as they do in Red Bull Air Race, limit max G.

Their problem is the same, planes can produce a lot more Gs than any human can sustain, so they´ve limited G forces to 12 and anyone going further will receive a penalty. For F1 that limit should be around 5-6G, but then they could use active aero wich allow high DF on the corners but also low DF and drag at the straights for blistering top speeds :D


The problem is though, that the G-force measurement could be quite difficult when it comes to accuracy. Or at least, that is as far as I know.




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