Honda Power Unit Complaints

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.

Is there too little technical discussion occuring in the Honda PU thread?

Yes
40
30%
No
13
10%
GP2 engine
25
19%
120hp
13
10%
Vibration
14
10%
Japanese work culture
12
9%
Third season!
18
13%
 
Total votes: 135

User avatar
Chene_Mostert
-2
Joined: 30 Mar 2014, 16:50

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

Post

Webber2011 wrote:
18 Apr 2017, 11:49
One of my biggest complaints is that there's so many people still wondering if Wazari is actually who he claims to be.

I've been in touch with him many times, and it's more of a friendship than anything else due to his daughter's battle with cancer.

Never have I pestered him for some information that no one else would know.
Never have I felt the need to, but he's been very open with me, and often said things that only turn up here on the forum a little later.

I've never posted those things either, simply out if respect for our friendship.

I think there's been a lot of members here who haven't shown respect, both in the comments they've made concerning Wazari's integrity, and how some have continually harassed him for information he obviously can't share.

I find it incredible that a technical forum would drive away an insider.

That's all, rant over.
Are you Wasari?
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

Webber2011
Webber2011
10
Joined: 25 Jan 2011, 01:01
Location: Australia NSW

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

Post

Chene_Mostert wrote:
18 Apr 2017, 12:16
Webber2011 wrote:
18 Apr 2017, 11:49
One of my biggest complaints is that there's so many people still wondering if Wazari is actually who he claims to be.

I've been in touch with him many times, and it's more of a friendship than anything else due to his daughter's battle with cancer.

Never have I pestered him for some information that no one else would know.
Never have I felt the need to, but he's been very open with me, and often said things that only turn up here on the forum a little later.

I've never posted those things either, simply out if respect for our friendship.

I think there's been a lot of members here who haven't shown respect, both in the comments they've made concerning Wazari's integrity, and how some have continually harassed him for information he obviously can't share.

I find it incredible that a technical forum would drive away an insider.

That's all, rant over.
Are you Wasari?
Hahaha :lol:

Wish I was to be honest, I couldn't imagine a better job than being involved in F1

My technical knowledge is a little behind his though I'm afraid, so I'm just a lowly forklift driver at the moment.

User avatar
MrPotatoHead
53
Joined: 20 Apr 2017, 19:03
Location: All over.

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

Post

Webber2011 wrote:
18 Apr 2017, 11:49
One of my biggest complaints is that there's so many people still wondering if Wazari is actually who he claims to be.

I've been in touch with him many times, and it's more of a friendship than anything else due to his daughter's battle with cancer.

Never have I pestered him for some information that no one else would know.
Never have I felt the need to, but he's been very open with me, and often said things that only turn up here on the forum a little later.

I've never posted those things either, simply out if respect for our friendship.

I think there's been a lot of members here who haven't shown respect, both in the comments they've made concerning Wazari's integrity, and how some have continually harassed him for information he obviously can't share.

I find it incredible that a technical forum would drive away an insider.

That's all, rant over.
I couldn't agree more.
I would always love reading his input on here. It's actually very surprising for someone that is Japanese to talk so much in public like he did. Being from a culture of such respect I'm sure he was saddened by the way many had no respect for him.

Maybe he will come back some day.

Next time I'm in Japan maybe I'll see if he wants to go out to dinner on me.

ronanharris09
ronanharris09
0
Joined: 24 Apr 2017, 12:31

Let's see where the real weakness is

Post

Hi, I've been a silence reader here for some time. I think this is where I will post my first comments.
It is true that they're even in a better conditions this season, I can confirm that.
I have some screenshots about a data from F1 (a registered account).
This season, they corner very well compared to any teams, what I can complaints about the PU is that it couldn't get better at higher gears, from their first year till date.
When it comes to 💻 science 💫, what I much about it 💢 is analyzing the 📉 📊 👌.

BanMeToo
BanMeToo
6
Joined: 27 Dec 2013, 16:26
Location: USA

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

Post

Love this thread btw.

User avatar
nzjrs
60
Joined: 07 Jan 2015, 11:21
Location: Redacted

Re: Let's see where the real weakness is

Post

ronanharris09 wrote:
25 Apr 2017, 02:18
Hi, I've been a silence reader here for some time. I think this is where I will post my first comments.
It is true that they're even in a better conditions this season, I can confirm that.
I have some screenshots about a data from F1 (a registered account).
This season, they corner very well compared to any teams, what I can complaints about the PU is that it couldn't get better at higher gears, from their first year till date.
I suggest you post in another thread. This one is for mockery. It exists as only a slight ironic exaggeration of some of the worst quality post complaining about Honda eelsewhere on the site.

User avatar
GPR-A duplicate2
64
Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 09:00

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

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Manoah2u wrote:
17 Apr 2017, 21:05
zac510 wrote:
02 Apr 2017, 13:09
I don't think it's fair to blame the FIA. Only with hindsight can you blame the FIA. Nobody at any time prior to testing of 2014, that I can recall, thought that the rules were bad at all. The equalisation of the V8s worked so well and all engine makers - Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault - seemed so professional that nobody thought they'd do anything but create new V6 hybrid engines of an equally high standard and competitiveness with the new rules.
I'm not doubting that the rules were short-sighted, but at the time we had a lot of faith in the 3 manufacturers and no reason to doubt the rules.

Code: Select all

Only with hindsight? Not only, with hindsight you can blame Honda for not choosing 'the right path'. But that same goes for FIA, that gave us 2 full miserable years of absolutely retarded token systems, which resulted in Mercedes having a ginormeous advantage, and Renault in a complete mess, which destroyed their relationship with RedBull. If we were to look into that, then FIA has destroyed both Renault and Honda for that matter, and then i'm not even mentioning Ferrari wasn't in best of shapes either.
Mercedes did their job better for 2014, sure. But the problem was that there was no way Renault or Ferrari could advance thanks to the rediculous token system. Remove the token system and all of a sudden Ferrari is right there with Mercedes. Renault is still slightly behind somehow and then there's Honda. The problem with Honda is exactly like Andres125sx has mentioned.
Whilst Ferrari and Mercedes and Renault were working on that unit years prior to 2014, Honda only became an option or motivated when the relationship with Mercedes and Mclaren ended, and Mclaren somehow convinced Honda to step in.

When Honda concidered stepping in, they were already atleast a year behind, probably more compared to the competition, and add to that, that all along, the competition was participating in F1 whilst Honda wasn't. 

Then Honda misfired with their intitial engine prototype and saw them needing to fix that under the token system = impossible. Then next year it went a lot better but then also not, still, under the token system.

They decided to go with a totally different design this time around, only this is the first time you can't directly blame the token system - mind you, FIA's sins compile of more than just the token system , but let's focus on this right now - though indirectly, they had their hands tied in 2015 and 2016 thanks to exactly that, and lost precious time. 

So really, this time around is really the only time you can really look at Honda, and that's exactly what's happening. Meanwhile, Mclaren has put enormeous pressure on Honda and we're going to find out in a couple of races what the result will be. 

Let's hope it will be a mighty result, but keep in mind that that result must be made despite the FIA's rediculous system, which includes the last 3 years of token system nonsense. 

Because however you put it, like claiming 'yeah but Merc and Fer and Ren also had the token system', is shortsighted, as that may be true, but Honda still was years behind to that and also had that token system issue. Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes had a couple of years more of development under their belt than Honda, and i'm 100% sure that their V6 engines were already steadily under development somewhere in 2012 for sure, not so much for Honda.

which means that you could wonder in what shape the Merc engine would have been if you catapulted that to the track mid 2012 or early 2013 in a hurry. That's what we're seeing at Honda.
I see a lot of fundamental issues with the whole approach of blaming FIA, token system and trying to protect Honda from blames.

It was ultimately, Honda's decision to enter the arena by 2015.

Honda confirms 2015 F1 return as McLaren engine supplier
Honda has been known to have been in talks with McLaren for some time and has already made significant progress with its all-new 1.6-litre turbocharged V6 Formula 1 engine, working out of its R&D facility in Tochigi, Japan.
The news report was official by May 2013 and obviously, no corporate decision would be done in a jiffy and must have been in talks for quite a long time before all the agreements were signed and then went public with the announcement. So, they had a little over 2 years time to prepare to enter the field.

I am sure, the decision to start from 2015 itself MUST have been well thought out and was their OWN. At the time when they were deciding to take up the project and enter in 2015, they knew all the parameters and regulations completely well to have made the decision to enter in 2015. To now blame the token restrictions and all, doesn't make sense. Look at Haas, they did not hurry into jumping on the field for 2015. They took enough time to get themselves ready and came in 2016 and had a rewarding year. It must have been too attractive to jump in 2015 itself, but they resisted.

Honda also had one full year to look at the class leading Mercedes PU that McLaren was using in 2014. Whatever work they were doing for their PU, they had a reference in front of them. They could see the complete and detailed architecture of Mercedes PU and their engineers at the base could (or should) have made sense of each component's design and then, base their own work on that understanding.

Ferrari had failed spectacularly for 2014 with their PU, but they managed to recover miraculously for 2015! They did go through the same pain of restricted tokens, but ended up almost having an equal best PU.

After realizing the challenges and firing their previous Engine chief, Honda dedicated a whole new team for 2017 PU (at the beginning of 2016) and should have used their two troublesome years' worth of learning to bounce back. But, they turned up in the same situation as they were in their first appearance. They have spent 4 years on the PU, starting from 2013 and they are exactly where they were when they started.

And this is what their Engine chief has to say, - Link to the Article -
Hasegawa, 5 April, 2017 wrote:“As a matter of fact we were thinking too easy, [but] it was too difficult to achieve the new technology. We had some laboratory level experiments. We were thinking too easy, so that was my mistake.”
Saying, the regulations and token restrictions is the reason for shambles at Honda, is belittling other manufacturers' hard work and hiding the mediocrity of the work that Honda has done.

If you have right people, good things happen, but if you have wrong people, only bad things happen. We are talking about the premier class of motorsport where engineers swim with their hands tied to their back due to regulatory restrictions. Here, creative people come up with great solutions and mediocre ones, with excuses.

ronanharris09
ronanharris09
0
Joined: 24 Apr 2017, 12:31

Re: Let's see where the real weakness is

Post

nzjrs wrote:
25 Apr 2017, 09:30
ronanharris09 wrote:
25 Apr 2017, 02:18
Hi, I've been a silence reader here for some time. I think this is where I will post my first comments.
It is true that they're even in a better conditions this season, I can confirm that.
I have some screenshots about a data from F1 (a registered account).
This season, they corner very well compared to any teams, what I can complaints about the PU is that it couldn't get better at higher gears, from their first year till date.
I suggest you post in another thread. This one is for mockery. It exists as only a slight ironic exaggeration of some of the worst quality post complaining about Honda eelsewhere on the site.
So, where is the right place to post something about this, I've been looking arounds . . .
When it comes to 💻 science 💫, what I much about it 💢 is analyzing the 📉 📊 👌.

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Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

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GPR-A wrote:
25 Apr 2017, 12:14
I see a lot of fundamental issues with the whole approach of blaming FIA, token system and trying to protect Honda from blames.
Nobody is trying to protect Honda from blames, that would be like trying to dry up the oceans with a balling pump :wink:

But some balance would be welcome. Honda failed, nobody with a brain will deny that. But once we accept that, how are they supposed to solve their problems if FIA restrictions does not allow them to change the neccessary parts of their PU?

That´s my point, Honda failed and that´s entirely their responsibility. But once they failed, if they´ve not managed to solve their problems during 2015 and 2016 seasons, that´s due to FIA restrictions

Now in 2017 they failed again, but I put it in italics because after past two seasons they were forced to make a radical change in their PU. With normal development past two seasons Honda would have modified the PU accordingly to their problems, and the concept would have evolved normally. But since they were not allowed to develop what they had to develop, now in 2017 the gap was higher (maybe not in laptimes, but it was about the concept or PU potential) so they were forced to make a radical change at once.

In engineering, any radical change made at once means you´ll probably suffer teethering problems. Hasegawa said it himself even before winter tests, but people keep repeating Honda failed miserably in 2017 again... no they didn´t, they´re solving the teethering problems they pointed theirselves we would see at the beginning of the season.

Before stating they failed this season again, we must first wait and see how the PU performs once they´ve solved the usual teethering problems, because before that point we don´t know what´s the PU potential. Maybe it´s a beast but some problems are preventing them from exploding that potential and once those problems are solved it will perform great. Maybe not. We´ll have to wait before making sensationalistic statements :P

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turbof1
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Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

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I'm not actually sure if you could put the issues Honda is dealing with under "teethering problems" as they have been struggling hugely to get to the exact cause and putting an appropiate solution forward.

Teethering problems would be things like hydraulics leaking, sensor issues, overheating wires, mapping a bit off,... . Things they can easily notice what's going wrong and apply an effective solution inmediately. The vibrations issues they are dealing with however are structural, being an actual (unwanted) part of the design.
#AeroFrodo

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GPR-A duplicate2
64
Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 09:00

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

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Andres125sx wrote:
25 Apr 2017, 13:07
Now in 2017 they failed again, but I put it in italics because after past two seasons they were forced to make a radical change in their PU. With normal development past two seasons Honda would have modified the PU accordingly to their problems, and the concept would have evolved normally. But since they were not allowed to develop what they had to develop, now in 2017 the gap was higher (maybe not in laptimes, but it was about the concept or PU potential) so they were forced to make a radical change at once.
Well, what was that they were not allowed to develop? I think the FIA and the teams have been fairly open in allowing McLaren Honda, the opportunities to recover. I remember an additional engine allowed to Honda in 2015, compared to other teams. Not a single team, ever made complaint against them. Could Honda have pushed the FIA aggressively, to get out of tokens? May be, but did they? No. Even now, the Strategy group is coming together to help them.

The problem is, the kind of concepts they developed from the beginning, had challenges in quickly making modifications. In 2015, Honda had split its turbo, but the way it had done so was different to Mercedes, as the turbo sat within the tight confines of the 'V' of the engine, along with the MGU-H and the compressor was too small. Now, you can't simply go and change it instantly and make a new design, even if there was no token restrictions. Later, Honda acknowledged that its fundamental mistake in having placed the turbo unit within the ‘V’ of the six-cylinder internal combustion engine.

But Honda were adamant, that despite the new design freedoms for 2016, they continued with their design and concept of their V6 Turbo hybrid engine. They also refused to sign up power unit engineers from Mercedes or Ferrari, believing the path it is taking will be a winning one in the end. That means, it was not the token problems that were a headache for them, but the go forward architecture. They persisted with their original design.

References:
http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/14560 ... ngine-2016
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opini ... tinue-2016
http://www.grandprix247.com/2016/04/26/ ... -for-2017/

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Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

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turbof1 wrote:
25 Apr 2017, 13:15
I'm not actually sure if you could put the issues Honda is dealing with under "teethering problems" as they have been struggling hugely to get to the exact cause and putting an appropiate solution forward.

Teethering problems would be things like hydraulics leaking, sensor issues, overheating wires, mapping a bit off,... . Things they can easily notice what's going wrong and apply an effective solution inmediately. The vibrations issues they are dealing with however are structural, being an actual (unwanted) part of the design.
How is that outside the "teethering problems" definition?

It´s an unintended consequence of a new concept they´re developing and are still learning about it

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Thunder
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Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 09:50
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Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

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Teething Problems are usually smaller problems that are relatively easy to fix. Getting the Transition from the 1 cylinder Model to the V6 wrong and have the Engine shake itself to bits is a little more severe.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

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Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

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GPR-A wrote:
25 Apr 2017, 14:05
Well, what was that they were not allowed to develop?
The PU :roll:

I´m sure you can remember Honda claiming (in 2015) their smaller turbo-compressor would spin faster to compensate the size, but it was never able to spin at the planned 130k rpm, so they had a clear ERS disadvantage they were NOT allowed to solve for 2016 as...
GPR-A wrote:
25 Apr 2017, 14:05
Now, you can't simply go and change it instantly and make a new design, even if there was no token restrictions.
Insantly, no, period. But in 2015-16 winter.... if a manufacturer can´t change his PU between two seasons, he simply should not be competing #-o Do you think Honda is not able to change his PU in winter?

But the tokens didn´t allow for such a big change, because as you stated yourself, these PU are complex units with all parts working togheter, so for a turbo-compressor change they would have need a completely new PU, and the tokens didn´t allow for such a big change on all PU parts, so they could only modify some parts, but not all parts they should


Heck you just need to look at them this winter, first time there´s no token restrictions, what did Honda do? A completely new design. What they should have done past winter but were not allowed to due to the tokens :wink:


Basically IMHO 2015 PU was Honda fault 100%, but if Honda is in 2017 still trying to solve their problems, that´s FIA´s fault 100%. If it was for Honda (no tokens), they would have redesigned their PU the same 2015 season, and probably 2016 PU would have been the PU we will see as 2017 mkIII for last part of the season
Last edited by Andres125sx on 26 Apr 2017, 11:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Andres125sx
166
Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Honda Power Unit Complaints

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Thunders wrote:
26 Apr 2017, 11:47
Teething Problems are usually smaller problems that are relatively easy to fix. Getting the Transition from the 1 cylinder Model to the V6 wrong and have the Engine shake itself to bits is a little more severe.
To me teethering problems do not imply they´re small, not at all, to me teethering problems means new problems you´re not prepared to foresee because you don´t have previous experience with that new concept, so you´re forced to go through a new learning curve

But maybe in english you usually take it different :?: