2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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marmer
1
Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 06:48

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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Whatever happens there needs to be a limit on how many teams a engine manufacturer can supply to two. This would reduce the chance of domination from one engine. With the current teams we only need 1 more supplier. Currently it's very hard for honda powered to actually get points albeit self inflicted

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Jolle
132
Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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marmer wrote:
10 Sep 2017, 21:47
Whatever happens there needs to be a limit on how many teams a engine manufacturer can supply to two. This would reduce the chance of domination from one engine. With the current teams we only need 1 more supplier. Currently it's very hard for honda powered to actually get points albeit self inflicted

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How would not supplying Force India and Sauber break their domination? With in mind that Ron Dennis blocked other teams signing Honda the last few years.

The lease Mercedes gets from FI is possible not even 1% of the PU-department. Data collecting might be a small advantage, but they were already dominating in 2014, when nobody had data yet. I'm afraid it just having to do with lots of money, a almost unlimited amount of engineers and cleaver engineering.

EvilPhil II
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Joined: 08 Feb 2015, 06:21

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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Somewhere recently there was an article that Lauda had been quoted in 2014 saying that Merc had been working on that years engine since the end of 2007.

That is a long long time for anyone to catch up.

NL_Fer
82
Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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EvilPhil II wrote:
10 Sep 2017, 23:04
Somewhere recently there was an article that Lauda had been quoted in 2014 saying that Merc had been working on that years engine since the end of 2007.

That is a long long time for anyone to catch up.
Yeah, they supported the i4 first, but i bet after thorough testing a V6 would work better to dominated the world.

Jolle
132
Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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NL_Fer wrote:
10 Sep 2017, 23:24
EvilPhil II wrote:
10 Sep 2017, 23:04
Somewhere recently there was an article that Lauda had been quoted in 2014 saying that Merc had been working on that years engine since the end of 2007.

That is a long long time for anyone to catch up.
Yeah, they supported the i4 first, but i bet after thorough testing a V6 would work better to dominated the world.
It's not just the length of time, it's the scale of the company that makes it, on pure engineering power, just unbeatable for brands like Cosworth or other boutique racing engineering companies. If Daimler just let all their engineers work an hour late, or trough their lunchbreak for a day on some whirlwind cilinderhead theorie, you're already speaking of man-years....

NL_Fer
82
Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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Thats also true. They say that the Brixworth HPE division did not have enough knowledge on turbo's. Instead of buying outside knowledge, they used inhouse engineers from the Mercedes trucking division.

eyalynf1
6
Joined: 24 May 2011, 01:05

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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I would make the case for series hybrids with a small, powerful, four cylinder ICE. Here are my thoughts:

The engine formula should not be considered in isolation from the rest of the car
  • Set the target power output based on the speeds desired, while minimizing the power required by opening up aero options for low-drag downforce. This will enhance road relevancy as road cars have and continue to advanced with drag coefficients in the mid to low 0.20 figures. Obviously, a downforce racing formula won't get near this, but reducing drag will reduce power by at least a 1.5 exponent. So perhaps target a maximum cd for say, Monaco of 0.9 compared to the current 1.1+. Minimizing the power required to run at the target speeds for each track will inform the power unit specification. Lowering the power required will minimize the weight of components associated with a hybrid powertrain, a bugaboo of the current engine formula
- A desire to maintain Formula 1 as the pinnacle of motorsport technology, and as a laboratory for developing technology that is relevant to road cars.
  • This implies a vetting and testing of potential future technologies. I think in that regard, even a "failure" can be an informative success and as such is the proper view of the current formula. They currently have achieved 43 percent thermal efficiency, and 30% less fuel consumption. Yet they also learned that reliability is difficult with the MGU-H tech, and that it is an expensive powerplant. Lesson learned, time to move onto a new concept to test. For the next "lab test", I would like to see a series hybrid. This would allow simplification/cost reduction in that it eliminates the transmission. Focus then becomes on making the ICE the most efficient generator possible. Define the ICE format in such a way as to focus on the refinement of road applicable tech. Twin charging, HCCI, turbo charging, other forms of thermal heat recovery, but no expensive MGU-H from which we have perhaps learned all we can. Perhaps use a high power density spec electric motor and generator, but allow open battery and KERS technology , as that area needs the most development for road relevancy.
- Striving for future power units to be powerful, while becoming simpler and less costly to develop and produce
  • Again, eliminate MGU-H for simplicity. A series hybrid to remove the transmission cost, and also as a potential failure point. Spec electric motor to control cost. Focus development money on the most road relevant needs: batteries and/or capacitors, and ICE efficiency.
- Improving the sound of the power units
  • A series hybrid would likely operate in a narrow rpm range, with the potential for a distinctive engine note. But in reality this is an entertainment/production issue. Perhaps focus on microphone pick-up enhancement for TV viewers, and some form of loudspeaker enhancement via the PA systems at the circuit. For me, the sound enhancement issue should be bracketed off from the tech that impacts racing. Allow this to influence performance tech is akin to the fan-boost in Formula E. No thank you!
- A desire to allow drivers to drive harder at all times.
  • This is another issue that cannot be addressed via the power unit alone. Tires play a huge role in this, perhaps more than any fuel conservation strategy. The first step is a tire that can take the punishment. The second step is a power unit that can operate reliably at near 100% of its performance envelope. This again recommends a series hybrid that can be designed to operate reliably in a narrow power range. Perhaps narrow the ICE tech to something more bullet-proof and scrap my "other thermal heat recovery" suggestion in order to get high reliability at high load factors, and remove incentives to turn down engine performance. In this case, performance enhancement would come from optimized battery tech, optimized kinetic energy recovery by adding front axle KERS. Recovery more electric energy, deploy more recovered energy, minimize the (ICE) generated energy development (cost simplification) and generated energy required (low drag down-force, increased mechanical grip).
Thoughts?

nokivasara
2
Joined: 27 Nov 2014, 20:53

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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I really don't wish to see a series engine in F1.
What I'd like to see is more freedom, 4-, or 12-cylinder doesn't matter, why not allow both? Wouldn't a regulated max fuel flow (as of today) keep the max outputs roughly at the same level?

I'd also like the max fuel flow to be higher. Since F1 want's to be green nowadays (which of course is a joke) they could have shorter races instead and thereby not using more fuel than today. Someone could do the math but only a lap or two shorter races should free up quite a bit of fuel to be used, right?

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adrianjordan
24
Joined: 28 Feb 2010, 11:34
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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I don't think they'll ever truly control costs while you have the likes of Daimler involved. Even if you had a cap and it was policed, what's to stop them having someone transfer to a different R&D department, develop an idea or test lots of alternatives, then transfer back with the knowledge and experience of that research. Thus hiding the costs elsewhere in the business.

I think manufacturers should be free to spend what they want, but there should be a fixed cost for the PU's for customer teams. I also agree with some here that, if you simplify the PU and reduce the number of races they have to last for, you'll reduce costs naturally anyway.
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BawanaDave
0
Joined: 15 Sep 2017, 21:54

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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F1 is the place for the most cutting edge racing technology in the world. Hybrid technology? Fuel efficiency? Who gives a rats patoot!!!! F1 cars are the fighter jets of the car world. If you want to advance fuel efficiency or hybrid/electric technology, let the manufacturers do the testing somewhere else. The consumer market will drive that research. Is it F1s job to come up with better battery technology?
Who cares if it's a IL4, V6, V8 or V22? How about the FIA says your limited to X liters and Y Kgs. Build what ever you want. It's in the constructors interest to build the most powerful and reliable engine they can. Rain or shine.
If you are going to go out and buy a Ferarri, do you really care what fuel mileage it gets? NO
It costs $30,000 USD to do a scheduled maintenance. Do you care about handling, performance, and reliability? Absolutely

banjo789
1
Joined: 30 Aug 2017, 12:18

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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Lets hope the new regs get rid of fuel flow limits and let the engines rev to the limiter. Give them 100kg+ of fuel but let the drivers decide how to use it. This will also help with overtaking as there will be a bigger differeniation between engine maps for push for pass moments 'overtaking' and regular mappings to manage the fuel & engine life to finish the race.

cplchanb
11
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 19:13

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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banjo789 wrote:
18 Sep 2017, 12:04
Lets hope the new regs get rid of fuel flow limits and let the engines rev to the limiter. Give them 100kg+ of fuel but let the drivers decide how to use it. This will also help with overtaking as there will be a bigger differeniation between engine maps for push for pass moments 'overtaking' and regular mappings to manage the fuel & engine life to finish the race.
imo in the end be prepared to be underwhelmed as they will look for optimised rpms and not absolute limit. with turbos, the emphasis is more on low range torque in order to save on fuel and maximise optimum efficiency.

hurril
54
Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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BawanaDave wrote:
15 Sep 2017, 22:34
F1 is the place for the most cutting edge racing technology in the world. Hybrid technology? Fuel efficiency? Who gives a rats patoot!!!! F1 cars are the fighter jets of the car world. If you want to advance fuel efficiency or hybrid/electric technology, let the manufacturers do the testing somewhere else. The consumer market will drive that research. Is it F1s job to come up with better battery technology?
Who cares if it's a IL4, V6, V8 or V22? How about the FIA says your limited to X liters and Y Kgs. Build what ever you want. It's in the constructors interest to build the most powerful and reliable engine they can. Rain or shine.
If you are going to go out and buy a Ferarri, do you really care what fuel mileage it gets? NO
It costs $30,000 USD to do a scheduled maintenance. Do you care about handling, performance, and reliability? Absolutely
Maybe tractor pulling would be more to your liking. I came here _because_ this formula is advanced and interesting.

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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hurril wrote:
18 Sep 2017, 19:11
I came here _because_ this formula is advanced and interesting.
If by "..advanced & interesting." you mean 'constrained & frustrating' then I agree..

A quick look at the consternation experienced by renowned engine experts Honda ( & shown by that thread's 'hit count')
is indicative of the folly - of a such a heavily proscribed, yet ultra-techical formula - as is current, in F1 competition..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

hurril
54
Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: 2021 F1 New Engine Formula

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J.A.W. wrote:
19 Sep 2017, 08:14
hurril wrote:
18 Sep 2017, 19:11
I came here _because_ this formula is advanced and interesting.
If by "..advanced & interesting." you mean 'constrained & frustrating' then I agree..

A quick look at the consternation experienced by renowned engine experts Honda ( & shown by that thread's 'hit count')
is indicative of the folly - of a such a heavily proscribed, yet ultra-techical formula - as is current, in F1 competition..
It is! Arising out of that is the most interesting engine technology I've come to know. (I like tractor pulling too!)

Honda could be the winners in a series with worse competitors. That is not as stupid as it might come across as being. What people forget is that what causes all the anguish is that Mercedes is so far ahead; the other suppliers are pushing their stuff past 100% which means that it breaks. So it's not that these particular sets of constraints are more difficult, even though they really are, it's that Mercedes are crushing the others. They're the Usain Bolt making the others strain their hamstrings catching up.