Masks are falling

RH1300S · Post 20 Sep 2006, 11:59

Does anyone share my feelings that somehow Ross Brawn is above all of this? On the one hand, he is quite obviously deeply involved with the team and by default must be part of any controversy.

But for me, somehow the man seems to have a dignity and integrity that does not seem to fit.........no doubt he's a fierce competitor, but I see him more in the Patrick Head mould than the Todt mould.

Mikey_s · Post 20 Sep 2006, 12:06

Couldn't agree more RH,

for that matter I have the same feeling about Todt - perhaps i am a poor judge of character... Flav on the other hand...

just joking

monkeyboy1976 · Post 20 Sep 2006, 13:26

First off, I am an impartial observer in all this hoohaa. Let's make that clear. Being a Grand Prix racing fan first and a "tifosi" second. Some of the actions of the Ferrari team in the past have made me question my devotion.
However, I would like to point out the following:

While this is all ancient history now, there is a certain irony in that after the same race there were claims that Williams and McLaren colluded to rig the result of the race. That claim was rejected by the FIA World Council although it was never clear why the allegations ever got as far as the World Council.

This sort of stuff happens all the time and will do for ever and ever and ever until the end of time.
Winning means so much to all those involved in it. Bending the rules and doing everything you can to win is essential. If you don't do it, you are a mug.
The secret is not to get caught. I am sure many a race or championship in any form of motor racing has been won by devious means and we just don't know about it.
It's all part of the fun. Everyone does it. It's just that some people need someone to blame.

pRo · Post 20 Sep 2006, 13:38

monkeyboy1976 wrote:The secret is not to get caught. I am sure many a race or championship in any form of motor racing has been won by devious means and we just don't know about it.

Have to agree with that, 100%. Some even go as far as saying it's impossible to win, if you play strictly by the rules. I still like to think everyone has a chance to win within the rules.

It's all part of the fun. Everyone does it. It's just that some people need someone to blame.

The general blame usually doesn't start before someone gets too many shadows over his head. Many were blaming Schumi after the first incident that resolved the title. The blames slowly died after a while. Until the 2nd similar incident came up. That was too much for many and they'll never forget or forgive that. But for the majority, the blames again died. When Ferrari was so much ahead the others that the most exciting thing in the races was if there's a team order, few blamed them for cheating nor FIA favoring them. Many blamed them for being too good and taking the excitement out, but that wasn't a real blame, was it?

And now we have this season.

RH1300S · Post 20 Sep 2006, 14:21

monkeyboy1976 wrote:The secret is not to get caught. I am sure many a race or championship in any form of motor racing has been won by devious means and we just don't know about it.

I agree to a point; yes people have stretched the rules since they were rolling stones down hills. In fact some "cheats" have been celebrated

Maybe if Todt had been caught going down the pitlane asking all his "mates" to do him a favour. Maybe not so bad.

Asking Sauber, there is a nasty subtext here - "if you don't help us win, your engine supply dries up" - there's no point pretending anything else; that is a bigger crime than the actual act.

manchild · Post 20 Sep 2006, 15:01

I'm not trying to convince anyone who likes him to stop liking him. I'm only defending my point of view with new fact. Yes, Fonatana is a chater too but so are whole Sauber and Ferrari teams as well as Schuey. What Fontana did he did because of Schuey, to help Schuey as requested by Schuey's teamboss.

Regarding comments that what Fontana did didn't decide the race all I can say is that we can't look at the things that way. It was meant to decide the race, JT and Fontana did what they did to decide the race and if Villeneuve wasn't faster it would decide the race. Colision that occured later in the race was plan B for getting rid of Villeneuve and those to actions are part of the same criminal plan.

Now I wonder how many times since 1997 was Sauber in this kind of deal not to mention absurdity of idea that Jean Todt was anounced as next president of FIA.

Mikey_s · Post 20 Sep 2006, 16:19

Aaarghhh, I'm getting sucked in and I don't want to be!

RH, undoubtedly Sauber used Ferrari engines because they were good engines, but I still don't buy the conspiracy theory. Any commercial relationship between Sauber and Ferrari on an engine supply would undoubtedly mean income for Ferrari (on last years engines - absolute profit!!) and on the other side Ferrari would be contractually obliged to provide engines to Sauber.

I don't believe any such request/order came from Todt, but even if it did with either an explicit, or implicit threat it would be practical impossibility to execute without the danger of terrific repercussions if someone blew the whistle on such conversations.

in any case, there are other engine suppliers that could have been called upon if such a threat had been carried through.

In my view these conspiracies are too difficult to execute without the risk of getting caught.

The "win at any cost" response is a cop out; this is a big buck sport. The teams spend hundreds of millions of dollars to win - it is a large business and teams run them like a business. As such this investment means that you have better work your socks off to be faster, smarter and more cunning than your competitors, or they'll beat you.

There have been numerous threads about whether TMD, wheel rims, and whatever the next gizmo is are legal or not - ultimately the rule maker decides. If you are not attracting attention for pushing the boundaries then I'm sorry, but you are not at the front of the grid - and probably you will lose your job rather quickly. I'm not supporting cheating, but more often than not what one person feels is cheating, another interprets as great interpretation of the rules. Driving someone off the road is cheating, asking someone to block another team is also cheating, but I seriously doubt it happened and even more I doubt whether Peter Sauber would stoop to that level - I think if he had been asked he would have picked Todt up and thrown him out of the motorhome. he was also a gentleman and i don't think he would condone that sort of request! (engines, or no engines!)

DaveKillens · Post 20 Sep 2006, 16:34

RH1300S wrote:Does anyone share my feelings that somehow Ross Brawn is above all of this? On the one hand, he is quite obviously deeply involved with the team and by default must be part of any controversy.

But for me, somehow the man seems to have a dignity and integrity that does not seem to fit.........no doubt he's a fierce competitor, but I see him more in the Patrick Head mould than the Todt mould.

DaveKillens · Post 20 Sep 2006, 16:46

I agree RH, he keeps away from the public aspect of politics. Ross is basically involved in the technical aspect, and as well, has chosen to not be a part of Ferrari next season.
I think for some Shu and Ferrari fans, manchild appears to be consumed by attacking Shu and Ferrari. But that's not the case. What irks manchild is not their success, but the unethical manner they conduct business. Constantly, repeatedly, on a very regular basis that defines that this is no co-incidence, Michael Schumacher and his Ferrari team have stepped over the line of moral and ethical conduct. If it happens every so often, that's no problem. But I've been watching Formula One for decades, and I see it too, that at any moment or opportunity, Shu can and does break the rules. He does it far too often and repeatedly year after year to rule out any conclusion but that it is the nature of the beast.
And maybe the question I ask is this... are you willing to accept enethical conduct?

RH1300S · Post 20 Sep 2006, 17:18

I; for one, would not for second think that Peter Sauber would be a willing conspirator.........all evidence says that he is a man of utter integrity.

You can imagine the weight of pressure being brought to bear in such a meeting. It isn't a case of "ohh...go on" - "ok I will". There are many ramifications attached to engine supply, not just the motors, but sponsors also.......unfair pressure.

Is it all true? We don't know for sure; gut feel says that it probably did happen.

manchild · Post 20 Sep 2006, 17:27

Well, if Peter Sauber and Jean Todt don't deny these claims in next few days and put legal actions against Fontana than their silence will confirm what Fontana said.

mcdenife · Post 20 Sep 2006, 19:43

Well, if Peter Sauber and Jean Todt don't deny these claims in next few days and put legal actions against Fontana than their silence will confirm what Fontana said.

Silence cannot be taken as confirmation.

wazojugs · Post 20 Sep 2006, 22:00

enough said, i always thought there was a rat. lets see how many more stories come out now that people are retiring

Post 20 Sep 2006, 22:03

mcdenife wrote:
Well, if Peter Sauber and Jean Todt don't deny these claims in next few days and put legal actions against Fontana than their silence will confirm what Fontana said.
Silence cannot be taken as confirmation.

exactly what i was going to put there is no need to even respond to this by higher ups in red

same with MS replying to FA there was no need to

if i say manchild ate my little brother while defling my mom he must now sue me to prove that i am lying?

DaveKillens · Post 20 Sep 2006, 22:50

This is just one comment by one ex-F1 driver. Although the video and events of that day appear to confirm his statement, it was many years ago, and don't forget that Michael Schumacher was punished severely for other events at that race.
It can't change any outcome. No records will be affected, no punishments are going to happen. It only affects people's opinions, and they, like the big blue sea, are liquid and ever-changing.