Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
F1 is so cruel, even with single supliers. In this case the teams that will get tires for free should be top teams, teams where spending a bit more in rubber won't be crittical, but think about teams like spyker, with their minimal budget having to spend on tires. IMO that's giving and advantage and FIA should think about that
DaveKillens wrote:While checking some recent pictures of recent testing, it came to me that some cars (Ferrari and SA) still carry the Bridgestone advertising on their cars. And it was missing on other brands. Then, just recently I read an article where there was a rumor that Bridgestone had "deals" with some teams to supply tires free, while charging other teams for the cost of the tires.
So my personal impression that even at this stage of the season, not all teams are treated equally by Bridgestone. The general assumption by the masses is that everyone will get the same package. But maybe some certain teams may have a "favorite" status between themselves and Bridgestone. So much for fair and equal.
This leads to what may already be of concern by certain teams.. that their competitors may enjoy an advantage in the tire regime. Although the tires that come out of Bridgestone may share identical technical specifications, who can really know that a "good" production batch finds itself in the hands of a favored team?
This might have something to do with Michelin contractual issues.
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-
The thing about the Bridgestones for free to soem teams and not to others is that the 2007 regulations do not specify a single tyre supplier to the championship. Within the rules there could be 2, or 3 tyre suppliers and if there were then people would not complain if Bridgestone charged teams for tyres. Thus it is within Bridgestone's rights to treat teams on an individual basis and as if there were another supplier.
In 2008 when the FIA is contracting a single supplier for the whole season (already announced to be Bridgestone) there would undoubtedly be some clauses specified by the FIA in the contract with regard to the payment/delivery of tyres. However we can only speculate what they might be.
Scuderia_Russ wrote:They wouldn't have, Rob W is just making some wild assumptions! [-(
...And only the next day I read that Bridgestone have been favoring certain teams during race weekends by charging some and not others for extra tires.
Bridgestone basically used Ferrari as their sole development team for the past few years. The other Bridgestone-shod cars had to make do with what was on offer... It is almost laughable to me to even think that the tires they're planning for next year haven't been tested in early stages (with feedback) to some extent before the recent wide-spread initial tests by 'new' Bridgestone customers. And who would that testing have been conducted with???...
These new tires will have been made from data generated and collected by Ferrari over the past two-three-four years - there is no doubt they will have been designed with a Ferrari slant to them, whether intentional or not we'll never know (nor be able to prove either way) - primarily because Bridgestone don't have any other data to go by.
I kind of doubt Midland or Super Aguri (possibly even Williams) had much feedback/info which Bridgestone cared much for in the 2006 season considering their results/budgets/potential.
(You never know who people might work for on these boards... )
For fs, there is no incentive for Ferrari to make a competitive tyre for 2007 or 2008 and beyond. All they have to do is make a tyre that finishes the race. To see evidence of this, note the Bridgestone tyre behaviour the years both before Michelin joined and after they joined. Further, note the Goodyear tyre behaviour before and after Bridgestone joined.
There is already evidence that this new 2007 tyre is significantly different in its behaviour, source is the driver's recent comments about braking.
Your assumption that Ferrari and Bridgestone have colluded months in advance is based purely on speculation and draws no respect.
They have taken off the ears on the front wing and if you look the rear view mirrors have changed position. Does the lower wing plane curves look similar to honda's lower front wing plane?
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.
Bridgestone are not making tires with a Ferrari slant, nor is there any inherent advantage to them.
Let's think here. What are some tire parameters that a team could potentially ask for and hopefully have made... these are my best guesses from having been involved on the trackside end of racing a bit, talking with development engineers at Goodyear, and having seen race tires made up close.
While the specifics and nuances of modern F1 tires are beyond me, everything still comes down to compound and construction.
Ply orientation and bias - is the tire going to have higher longitudinal slip stiffness or lateral cornering stiffness? Is the tire construction built more for flat out acceleration and braking, or for cornering? Track-specific requirement. I imagine there's quite a bit of fine tuning one could make here.
Perhaps with logged pushrod load data one could build tire constructions specifically for an anticipated load range, or weight split front to rear. In F1 though I'd imagine the mass distribution, roll resistances etc are split very very evenly for a finely balanced car.
Compounding - Overall, is the tire going to have a longer lasting harder compound of grippier soft compound? Or perhaps a layering of compounds such that the tire is designed to "come in" after X amount of laps, or be very grippy for a short period (perhaps right out the gate in an effort to move up the field quickly) and then maybe last a bit longer than anticipated? Strategic element. I would imagine 'general use' tires like those that will be made by BS for the field will have a fairly uniform compound.
Apparently another big thing in compounding recently, mentioned by Claude Rouelle, is rival teams or tire constructors would try to make compounds that would be "incompatable" with rival tire compounds so when rubber was laid down it would be hard to pick up and the track would be more slick to a competitor. Not an option with the field all on the same tire.
Or think about it this way. You get a brand new set of tires.. new compound and construction from what you've used. Assume the competition already knows ALL about them. What does it take to make up the ground?
Money, and data.
Money, probably not an issue! $20-30k for some good tire testing at CALSPAN (or even in house)? Chump change. An upright assembly costs that much.
To set up your car well straight off the line without weeks of testing, you're going to want data on operating temperature (usually provided by manufacturer anyway), camber and load sensitivity, wear rate, longitudinal and lateral force stiffnesses. Throw it on a force/moment machine. I have a video of an F1 tire doing some lateral force testing somewhere around, super cool, but not handy at the moment. You'll be able to get cold and hot spring rates, springrates after wear, grip as a function of temperature, all sorts of curves you can extrapolate through Pacejka '96 or something similar.
From all that you can get a pretty good baseline of what Ackermann you want to run, what spring and rollbar changes or general camber control changes you'll have to make, et cetera. Hell with good enough data acquisition (though I dont know if F1 cars test with slip angle sensors) you could run a tire through exactly what steered angles, loads, and torques it will likely see on a track.
Even if Ferrari had been testing on new tires all damn season, in my somewhat-informed opinion it will make naught difference.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.
m3_lover wrote:They have taken off the ears on the front wing and if you look the rear view mirrors have changed position. Does the lower wing plane curves look similar to honda's lower front wing plane?
Actually, it's just an F2004, not the 248-F1, so nothing odd going on :).
Ray wrote:There is also a number 1 on that car as well.
Where did you find that picture manchild? What about the other picture you put up?
I never claimed that's F248. Yes it F2004 and pic is as watermarked Sutton from F1 racing.net previous pic with red tyre is Jordan copyrighted pic found on F1 total (German F1 site).
To be honest I'd actually be pretty surprised if Ferrari or anyone had tested on new Bridgestone tires in the 2006 season. Yes, Ferrari had been Bridgestone's most successful team. But I just seriously doubt they'd be in cahoots. No reason to. Could only bring harm to Bridgestone for showing favoritism.
Beyond that.. when you have a week between races, you are busting your ass 50-80 hours a week to win THAT race for the current season. That means you're working for tuning that last .003 seconds of qualifying time on your current tires and current chassis. Winter testing is for new development.
Same goes for Bridgestone themselves. Tire development is painstaking and limited runs of tires are expensive to make. They'd be spending all their resources frantically making tires for the next race weekened, and put off 2007 tires for the winter (especially if there's not the pressure of another competitor tire). That is what would make sense to me.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.
Jersey Tom wrote:To be honest I'd actually be pretty surprised if Ferrari or anyone had tested on new Bridgestone tires in the 2006 season. Yes, Ferrari had been Bridgestone's most successful team. But I just seriously doubt they'd be in cahoots. No reason to. Could only bring harm to Bridgestone for showing favoritism.
Bridgestone and Ferrari have enjoyed a long and successful partnership. I believe it will continue. As far as Bridgestone being shy of any negative image, I must remind you of when they decided to optimize their tires purely for Michael and Ferrari, and basically told the lesser teams like Jordan to go bugger off.
In the final accounting for sales to the general public, all that matters is having that precious picture of the winning car carrying the Bridgestone logo on it. And the Ferrari carries a very large Bridgestone logo.
Back then they only had Jordan, Minardi and Toyota as their other teams. Hardly good testing data. It makes good business sense to put all your eggs in that one basket. If it wins, you're the king.. if it doesn't, nobody notices.
Excuse me for possibly sounding horribly stupid, but why is that tire red? Am I missing something? I hate to ask such a possibly stupid question. But I'm confused.
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