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ds.raikkonen wrote:look ppl...im not here to contradict you guys...im just giving my opinion..NASCAR may be difficult to drive...maybe coz they dont handle as well as F1 racers...or whatever it is...
It's not about your contradicting anyone. It's that you have no clue what you are talking about. Lighting is lighting, no matter what the series, or type of vehicle. The issue here is, is it feasible. So until you have something REMOTELY intelligent to say, I'd suggest you become a spectator instead of a participant in this discussion. You're uninformed rambling is wearing on my nerves.
Well im gonna put my two cents worth in here regarding these planned night races.
I really think its a bit "rich" that everyone else seems to think that night races would be a good thing for the sport, but to tell you the truth i think it'd be the beginning of the end of the sport here in Australia.
For so long now us "diehards" of the sport have had to watch the races at roughly around 10.30pm or so, or have to get up at 2-3am if the races are in Canada or the US!!
I mean how hard is it really for you guys in England, Europe or even the US to get up early or stay up late for a few races, i mean really how hard is it?
We have to do it for all but 3 races, depending on what our slack arse broadcaster Channel Ten are doing with stupid shows like Big Brother or Australian Idol!!
Think about the F1 fans on the other side of the world.
forzasab wrote:
For so long now us "diehards" of the sport have had to watch the races at roughly around 10.30pm or so, or have to get up at 2-3am if the races are in Canada or the US!!
I mean how hard is it really for you guys in England, Europe or even the US to get up early or stay up late for a few races, i mean really how hard is it?
We have to do it for all but 3 races, depending on what our slack arse broadcaster Channel Ten are doing with stupid shows like Big Brother or Australian Idol!!
Think about the F1 fans on the other side of the world.
yeah i agree, you guys have a really bad time zone for watching F1
But in India, its the BEST TIME ZONE for watching f1
All european races at 5 pm
All asian races at 10am to 12 noon
All US race at 10 pm
Aussie races at 8 am morning
all on sundays
Its just a great time zone....i think we are just lucky
seems a lot of people are hung up on the feasibility of night races actually happening. from a melbourne perspective... i think these people are missing the point of all this recent publicity entirely.
night races in melbourne will very likely never happen, for a number of reasons:
1
despite whatever's done across the pond in the US with NASCAR/whatever... (a) very few locals actually care for it and (b) lighting for F1 on a temporary street circuit is an entirely different engineering challenge. i don't doubt for a second that adequate lighting is more than possible but developing procedures and standards pertinent to F1 is a lot of technical work - which you'll find in a legal sense alone (let alone technically) very likely can't be pinched from another series - and doing it on a temporary scale (e.g. melbourne) incurs more significant cost penalties that, given the state of the event, won't win any favors down here.
2
within australia, the GP is losing the state government money. a lot of money. a top drawcard for it used to involve having our V8 supercars stage a race there. this doesn't happen anymore, and F1 is not for everyone. even traditional sponsors are pulling out of the event.
add to this we're going through a very eco-sensitive period down here at the moment. as a public relations exercise, if you wanted to get the GP out of melbourne by proposing a night race... this is an excellent time to do it.
3
outside of australia there are other sentiments that don't quite want it. when BE says 'melbourne had better be well lit for a night race or the contract won't get extended', you're not translating correctly if you're taking it literally. what's meant is 'we're commissioning races in other places we have growing markets. the timetable is getting kind of full. it's not been the best run race on the calender for a while now. you're the first race of the season, yet most of our audience can't see it live. i bloody well know your public won't support a night race... so you've got a contract to 2010, and here's your notice'.
e.g. it'll be very unlikely that there's going to be a race in melbourne lit or otherwise beyond 2010. they're might be a race somewhere else in australia but it won't head the timetable and it won't be here.
4
i'm not sure how many are actually familiar with albert park. it's adjacent to the middle of the city. people live and work there. parents expect to put their kids to bed
noone reasonably doubts the GP didn't do great things to the area - albert park now has world class sports centres/facilities and was very well landscaped prior to the GP arriving. it's a nice place to live around. but it's damn near unusable around GP weekend, the few weeks after where they tear the GP down and the few months before when they install everything for the GP.
we have some very good (certainly more exciting to go around) racetracks in the country that have noise restrictions for most events and are located well, well away from the city centre regardless. it's an exceedingly small minority that wants to host a GP so badly that they'll do anything to satisfy BE's whims.
you'll find very little support amongst a very patient melburnian public for the GP if it's to be held at night. that includes me... and i work in automotive.
5
and really... have a good look at the track and the kind of races it provides. as boring as batshit. if not for a decent amount of carnage at the first race of the year... not really much to it usually.
***
facts are that it's been here since what, 97, and that's great! we've had a great time with it. but F1 has more pressing needs than a race in melbourne, lit or otherwise. read the writing on the wall!
do you really think bernie & co would hold a race in melbourne - that's been more or less the same for 10 years now - over a race in a new, developing market where there's governments ready to put money up for new facilities, new tracks, bigger TV audiences, bigger local revenues? interest for hosting F1 races is getting bigger yet the schedule can only support so many races.
a second race in the US (F1's forever untapped market) vs a race in australia?
a race in russia at a new track vs a none-too exciting race in a country far, far away?
a race in india vs a race in a country with 20 million people in the wrong time zone?
a race in a growing market - or one willing to throw money at F1 for the moment (just as we were 10 years ago) - or a race that costs it's hosts AUD$30m (and growing) per year and is losing sponsors?
"lights or bust" my ass.
(very sadly for us down here) the argument has very little to do with whether we (or anyone else) can hang some lighting over the race track or not.
show bernie the potential $... the only light bulb you need to see switch on in F1 is the one over his head!
SZ wrote:4
i'm not sure how many are actually familiar with albert park. it's adjacent to the middle of the city. people live and work there. parents expect to put their kids to bed
Hi SZ! Welcome to this brilliant forum!
Do you really think that if the local authorities had anything to do with the amount of noise produced, the races would ve ever happened? [/quote]
SZ wrote:a race in india vs a race in a country with 20 million people in the wrong time zone?
Well, bcoz the world is spherical, someone or the other has to sacrifice the 'time zone effect', like we do for the Canadian & US GPs. It wud be fair & square, if ppl on the other side did it. Isnt it?[/quote]
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC
SZ wrote:4
i'm not sure how many are actually familiar with albert park. it's adjacent to the middle of the city. people live and work there. parents expect to put their kids to bed
Hi SZ! Welcome to this brilliant forum!
Do you really think that if the local authorities had anything to do with the amount of noise produced, the races would ve ever happened?
[/quote]
it's *barely* tolerated around here. you can hear F1 noises clearly 15 km from the track.
(don't get me wrong, i love the noises, but) our best race tracks are in the middle of nowhere and noise restricted on most weekends... like most other race tracks around the world (AND despite being purpose built facilities, they're not usually open at night, either!).
if you want to make a real noise for a special occasion you'd sooner hold something somewhere other than the city centre; i think in that we've been fortunate enough to hoste a GP for ten years. a street race in the city is uniquely accessible for a lot of locals (whereas it's a two hour ride to see motoGP, and that's riding 'quickly' ). but hold it at night and most of the people here that go see the race (families, etc) can't go.
so there's very little in it for your average victorian, and it comes back to the argument stated above.
e.g. it has nothing do to with lighting.
and what i meant with the india comment is that if your government got really serious about holding a GP (and it can't be far off the way the auto industry is developing in india), they'd get one. and an existing GP would have to go. and that'd very likely be melbourne.
We do it here for ALL non-european races (except Bahrain).
Talking about boring track... actually most drivers find it really interesting. And I enjoy it too while driving it in racesims. It's one of my favorites I must say.
SZ wrote:....is that if your government got really serious about holding a GP (and it can't be far off the way the auto industry is developing in india), they'd get one. and an existing GP would have to go. and that'd very likely be melbourne.
True, just like Imola was pushed out this year...even I dont prefer night races, if youve read earlier posts..in India, co. like Tata(partner of Williams Toyota F1 team) & Kingfisher(partner of Toyota F1) are trying their best for a street race in Delhi, but sadly the govt. is nt even trying..if its introduced by 2009, which i doubt, i cant say for sure that Melbourne will be dropped, i think it wud be Bahrain, perhaps due to the criticism it has recieved.
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC
to hear a local point of view, too. But there are ways to work around the problems ... there's a pretty decent article about the fate of the Melbourne GP here, so I won't bother to rephrase it myself. IMO there might also be ramifications for drivers, I wonder whether it will be Coulthard or Webber continuing with RBR if it becomes clear that Australia won't be hosting a race in the future?
If one turns the tables around and considers how much it costs for a society to "have" an F1 driver, Spain just coughed up for two GPs etc. ... the FIA's drive to make F1 more economical certainly doesn't apply to venues. In fact, the trend seems to be exactly the opposite. Considering that much of the sport is about advertising, I can't support taxpayer support for such an activity under any circumstances. The sport has every opportunity of being an economical, societal and environmental success, all in one, without public support.
But of course governments are easy targets when it comes to making a little extra, since they're rarely entirely logical with their expenditures anyway. There's a lot of air in F1 finances, but the powers that be seem intent on cutting costs only where those are the least misplaced: R&D. That isn't a good indication on where the focus is shifting and the future sporting credentials of F1. Maybe it's better NOT to have a F1 race at this time, ride this phase out and get involved at a more opportune moment.
That being said, I'd miss the Oz GP if it left the calendar. But I can't support having F1 races in places where it's disadvantageous for the locals.
checkered wrote:there's a pretty decent article about the fate of the Melbourne GP here, so I won't bother to rephrase it myself.
pretty decent article author wrote:If the race was moved to February, for example, the sunset would be at 2030, so a race starting at 1900 could be run in daylight.
I bet he never driven a car while having to look against the blinding light of the setting sun... what was he thinking? ...not that decent, IMHO
Anyways here's some news:
f1.gpupdate.net wrote:Government: Aus Grand Prix may be run at night
Last week Bernie Ecclestone has said there might not be a future for the Formula 1 Grand Prix in Melbourne when it can not run at night. The Victorian Tourism Minister has now said that the Victorian government is considering the night race.
Victorian Tourism Minister Tim Holding told Australian newsagent ABC: "We've said at this stage our position is we haven't ruled it out. We want to have a look at what a proposal might look like, we obviously want to have a look at what impact it might have on the amenity of the Albert Park area.
"Obviously the race itself is more attractive from a television rights perspective, but we'll make a judgement in terms of what's in the best interests of Melbourne, what's in the best interests of Victoria and whether it's the right look for our Grand Prix to have. We've worked very hard to build a very successful event and we don't want to jeopardise that."
like the layout of the track might be pretty advantageous in that respect ... no long straights that are driven directly westwards. See for yourself, zoom in here, I think the satellite image is pretty much in a basic NSEW orientation. Besides, perhaps shading structures would have some advantages over artificial lighting in terms of reliability.
checkered, if aus govt/industry is famous for anything in motorsport it's for not supporting it's drivers in international categories. webber can be in out or sideways at RBR in future and can forever rue or not passing on time at renault, but i guarantee you a straight answer from him should you ever ask how much assistance anything in australia gave him en route to F1 compared to his colleagues...
i agree that you cut cost in R&D, you open up the competitiveness, you make the spectacle more interesting and accessible and the revenue flows in. which is why i'll hold to my rationale... there's plenty more that's globally interesting and/or exciting than a GP held at melbourne lights or not.
modbaraban, it's not so mate. 'Government: Aus Grand Prix may be run at night ' is about as effective as 'Government: Aus Grand Prix may not be run at night '. what else do you really expect the headlines out of the relevant state government to say?
'Government: We don't do --- that swings votes the other way'?
'Government: GP, fck it, we're throwing in the towel'?
'Government: Bernie told us where to go and left us no options'?
'Government: Singapore got there first (damn) and we'd look 'me too''?
'Government: It's more profitable if we pay someone else to host it'?
the public doesn't want noise at night but they don't want to see their government in a spineless shade of light, either.
the last time a state government here wanted the GP, they:
-turned rottweiler on the state that had it (south australia - adelaide GP) and setup a good deal of inter-state spite... over a GP
-turned our equivalent of central park upside down to accommodate (of all things) a racetrack
-told the ecomentalists where to go and promptly ignored them ('can't hear you over this 18kRPM engine...' for 10+ years
-went from last having held a gp in the 50's to holding the best GP going... in their 1st year
-relandscaped the park, built new sporting grounds, a new (world class) sports and aquatic centre to pacify the state that it wasn't 'just for the GP' but 'part of making melbourne great'
-promoted the hell out of the event, everyone loved it
-struck a deal to get it moved from the last event to the first on the calender
yet this time, we're into 'feasibility studies', we 'may run it at night' and a complete upstart GP nation - Singapore, with no auto industry, no GP event experience etc - has said yes Bernie, we'll do it, we'll light the stage blue and have naked grid girls if you say so, no problems over here 'mate'.
not impossible to keep it but it'd involve a massive swing of opinion locally and a lot of kowtowing to BE and co to keep it. and it'll cost more, which we can't support. bigger international audiences don't mean anything to your average melburnian it costs more, if less people turn up and if the noise precludes them functioning at work the next day. the proposal is not a plus for us, and we foot the bill. i'll go so far as to say that if it does happen pre 2010, it will kill the event. but remember, we won't 'have it taken off us' it, we'll 'have it stolen by those spiteful bastards from (insert state/country here)'.
i'll miss the GP if it goes, and i'll bet not nearly as loudly as some of the very people that called it 'tired'. you don't know what you've got till its... etc
BE & co are simply a lot less interested in hosting a GP here than they are elsewhere. if half the bloody calender had night GP's TODAY and india, saudi arabia, russia, US#2, singapore etc were still looking for a race... there'd be some other well-articulated and equally outrageous demand to make of the aus GP organisers.
ps mate... forget the sims... have been around albert park and it's a real shame cars can't race around phillip island. amazing track. riders don't find it 'really interesting', they find it 'one of the best circuits on the calender'. with good reason.
If you go AROUND any track you'll inevitably face the sunlight at least 1 time which is about enough. Besides the evening dusk isn't that good for racing in terms of good eyesight, reactions etc....
@ SZ
- your posts are monumental
SZ wrote:ps mate... forget the sims... have been around albert park and it's a real shame cars can't race around phillip island. amazing track. riders don't find it 'really interesting', they find it 'one of the best circuits on the calender'. with good reason.
- I'll try Philip Island
- The most fascinating aussie track I've seen is Bathurst so far. I found it impossible to setup an F1 car for it
Albert Park, as i have seen and many have said about it, is a scary, daunting circuit, esp the first corner, the Jones chicane, where many drivers have spun their cars..and due to the shadows of the trees falling on the track over the course of the race, which makes judging of corners even more difficult..they have to literally cram the circuit in their brains and go by that. Its also a very green track, bcoz hardly any races are staged there, and it changes a lot over the course of a race weekend. Wurz said that there are some corners, that are taken in the 3rd gear during free practice, and can be taken as high as 5th during the race. But one advantage of a night race there will be the absense of the tree shadows. So, itll prove to be good for the drivers rather than bad.
“Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary...that’s what gets you.” - JC
