Sato to Toyota?

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f1.redbaron
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005, 23:29

Sato to Toyota?

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Well, there is a rumor that Toyota is after Sato? Replacing one useless driver with another one seems stupid. Toyota have to win over European fans, not the Japanese.

I know that Sato had scored the first point for SA, and I know that he had been better than his team-mates last year (but look who they were). Still, despite his success in Honda in 2004, I don't think that he is the answer.

Any thoughts.

bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

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If this is true, it only further confirms that Toyota is completely and utterly clueless about Formula 1.

They'd be better off giving their F1 budget to me. I mean, I've won just as many races as they have.

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Sawtooth-spike
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 15:33
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if sato replaces Ralf, does that make ralf the 1 or 2 best driver on track?

Satos is cheep and trys hard, 2 things that cant be said about ralf.

Maybe toyota woke up and relised how overrated he is.
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

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Its funny because I read that Sato has admitted he has no idea where this story came from. Also wasn't the reason that SA got Honda backing was that they needed a place to put Sato because of the public outcry in Japan.
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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It has to be understood what the goals of the Japanese manufacturers are. They are a proud, hard-working and enthusiastic society, and despite competing on the world stage, what they really want is for a race (and eventually title) to be won in a chassis, engine, tires and driver from Japan.
I have seen this trend on many different types of motorsport where a Japanese company is competing.
And yes, Toyota is global, but they never waver in focusing on their home market, Japan. Despite Sato's world-wide reputation, he's a hero in Japan. And that makes him a prime canditate for any Japanese team. When he was with BAR/Honda, his shortcomings placed the company in a position where he could no longer be one of the prime race drivers. But Honda still saw tremendous marketing potential in Sato, and went to all the trouble of setting up a second team with Sato as their number one driver.
He's quick, exciting, enthusiastic, and a fan pleaser. His only liability is his judgement.
I doubt very much if Honda - SA will let him go, especially to their rival.

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f1.redbaron
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DaveKillens wrote: He's quick, exciting, enthusiastic, and a fan pleaser. His only liability is his judgement.
Well, then, let's put him in a circus. Sato is quick, I'll give him that. But, I believe that he has had his chance with a top team when Honda came in second during 2004. He helped get them to that point, but most of the credit should go to Button and the car.

Then, when the things went wrong, he was let go. That is because Honda realized that in order to compete with the big teams, they cannot win unless they have a couple of the 'brand name' drivers.

If Toyota is in it to gain popularity with the Japanese fan-base, then OK. Go for it...I will find another team to cheer for. But, if they are in it to win championships, that isn't going to happen with Sato as one of the drivers - at least for as long as the sport has the likes of Alonso, Raikkonen, Massa, Hamilton, etc.

The bottom line is that one of the keys to win that championship, Toyota is going to have to develop a great car. I'm not so sure that Sato can give them the input needed to achieve that goal.

modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

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Sawtooth-spike wrote:Maybe toyota woke up and relised how overrated he is.
Actually they woke up and noticed that Michael has a brother when he retired... ( i.e. The one in Toyota isn't Michael Schumacher ) :lol:

ConsFW
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Joined: 24 Jul 2006, 23:25

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DaveKillens wrote:It has to be understood what the goals of the Japanese manufacturers are. They are a proud, hard-working and enthusiastic society, and despite competing on the world stage, what they really want is for a race (and eventually title) to be won in a chassis, engine, tires and driver from Japan.
Thank you for informing us what the collective Japanese really want, deep down, in their heart of hearts. :roll:

f1.redbaron wrote: Well, then, let's put him in a circus. Sato is quick, I'll give him that. But, I believe that he has had his chance with a top team when Honda came in second during 2004. He helped get them to that point, but most of the credit should go to Button and the car.

Then, when the things went wrong, he was let go. That is because Honda realized that in order to compete with the big teams, they cannot win unless they have a couple of the 'brand name' drivers.
Let’s take a look at the statistics. Sato’s replacement Rubens Barrichello - the much lauded, vastly more experienced former Ferrari driver - achieved in his first season with Honda 30 points and 7th in the WDC, whereas Sato achieved in his rookie year at Honda 34 points and 8th in the WDC, despite abysmal reliability from the car (four retirements due to mechanical failure that season - often while running in the points, not to mention several grid penalties for engine changes). Additionally, Sato out qualified his teammate Jenson Button eight times in spite of heavy mechanical unreliability (in one case qualifying 2nd, but dropping out due to engine failure). In comparison, Barrichello out qualified Button ten times - only two more than Sato - but had far fewer reliability issues. Compared to the vastly more experienced Barrichello, it's hard to see how Sato's performance could be criticized harshly. Consider also the well regarded Nico Rosberg who, in his rookie season, retired out of 9 of the 18 GPs, with five crashes - the last one at the 2006 Brazil GP taking out his own teammate Mark Webber. Oddly enough there appears to be no stigma surrounding Rosberg that labels him as a crasher, erratic, or dangerous, despite his accident rate being far higher than any of Sato’s seasons in F1, including Sato’s rookie year.

Sato’s 2005 season was not as good, but that was in no small part due to BAR Honda's disqualification/ban from three races because of illegal fuel tanks, physical illness (Malaysia GP), three mechanical retirements, and admittedly a few mistakes on Sato's part - but it was not as bad of a season as people make it out to be. A driver only has 18 opportunities a season to show his worth, and when your team is disqualified (by no fault of your own) for three races, and you fall ill for one, coupled with three retirements due to mechanical failure, you only have a few opportunities left. A few mistakes here and there plus a few average performances in the other races and it's all over in the shortsighted eyes of the fickle public.

Interestingly enough I’ve read several predictions prior to the start of this season that Anthony Davidson would “take Sato to school,” figuratively speaking, based on nothing more than Davidson’s impressive performances during Friday practice, while conveniently ignoring the time when Davidson and Sato were teammates in British F3, where Sato finished the season with a record-setting number of wins. Thus far Davidson has yet to “take Sato to school,” with Sato out-qualifying and out-finishing Davidson 3 to 1 (excluding mechanical failures). This is not to detract from Davidson’s ability – I have a great deal of respect for him and am glad to see him in a race seat (I’m sure he will improve as the season progresses) – but it illustrates how many people consistently belittle and underestimate Sato for some unknown reasons. Many seem to be quick to criticize but slow to praise. It seems as though his good performances can do nothing to redeem him from his few mistakes, which all racecar drivers have made at one point or another.

I think that Sato will continue to perform well and continue to prove his critics wrong. It remains to be seen whether people will come to recognize and respect his talent and focus on the positives, or continue to turn a blind eye and perpetuate what I feel is an unwarranted negative stigma.

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m3_lover
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You forgot to mention in 2005 at the Japanese GP he was DSQ for a collision with Jarno Trulli. Also in the 2005 season Button finished massively higher then Takuma Sato did after the U.S.A G.P
look under 2005 season

Also lets not forget his mistake at spa
" * In lap 14, Takuma Sato hit Michael Schumacher's car from behind, causing both to crash. The race stewards ruled that Sato had caused the collision and he would consequently drop ten places on the grid for the next Grand Prix. "

Or this in the 2006 season in China
" * * Takuma Sato was disqualified from 14th for ignoring blue flags"

Or at the 2006 San Marino GP-taking himself out of the race by spinning out.

All of this shows that he has made massive mistakes, and although all the f1 drivers make mistakes there are few that make that many big mistakes. The fans only remember the big mistakes and not the small ones which is bad for Sato's popularity and self image. Sato had his chance at Honda, he lost it and now he is stuck at SA for the time being.

And in passing you got to remember what Eminem said in 8 mile in his song Lose yourself 'You only get one shot, do not miss your chance to blow
This opportunity comes once in a lifetime yo'
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

ConsFW
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Joined: 24 Jul 2006, 23:25

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You cite two instances from the 2006 season, one involving blue flags, and another involving a spin out (itself not a rare occurrence on the race track). You should consider that Sato was driving a SA05 chassis, which was basically a repainted 2002 Arrows - a four-year old car that was not even competitive when it was new. At that point in time, Super Aguri had just been formed and were rushing simply to get a functioning car to the race track. In 2006, the F1 paddock actually recognized Sato's talent, perseverance, and leadership when they voted him "Unsung Hero of the Year" in the Red Bulletin at the final race in Brazil (2006 Sunday issue). If you recall from my earlier post, I mentioned for comparison Nico Rosberg's rookie year - 9 retirements from 18 races, 5 of them from crashes, the last of which took out his own teammate, yet I have not heard these incidents referred to as "massive mistakes," nor has he gained an unfavorable reputation because of them.

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m3_lover
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How does a 4 year car relate to Sato ignoring Blue Flags which he should have warned to move over or making a mistake and spinning out, the car just did not suddenly want to spin out on itself. These are mental mistakes that he made.

I know the SA05/SA06 is not competitive and I took into account his retirements/mechanical breakdowns. But he knew what he was getting into when he joined Super Friends. Has Rosberg ever been DSQ for his accidents..Nope, has Sato yep. Plus he was a Rookie in that he is allowed to make mistakes in his rookie year. Sato reputation has been made because of those mistakes over the last couple of years, Rosberg has been in F1 for 1 year.
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

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f1.redbaron
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Joined: 31 Jul 2005, 23:29

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Then, I stand corrected.

Quick, Toyota, sign him, 'cause this guy, STATISTICALLY, is next Schumacher.

You give retarded statistics that mean absolutely nothing, and cite red bulletin? Are you serious?

ConsFW
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Joined: 24 Jul 2006, 23:25

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m3_lover wrote:How does a 4 year car relate to Sato ignoring Blue Flags which he should have warned to move over or making a mistake and spinning out, the car just did not suddenly want to spin out on itself. These are mental mistakes that he made.

I know the SA05/SA06 is not competitive and I took into account his retirements/mechanical breakdowns. But he knew what he was getting into when he joined Super Friends. Has Rosberg ever been DSQ for his accidents..Nope, has Sato yep. Plus he was a Rookie in that he is allowed to make mistakes in his rookie year. Sato reputation has been made because of those mistakes over the last couple of years, Rosberg has been in F1 for 1 year.
I find it interesting how Adrian Sutil and Christijian Albers seem to have a greater tendency to lose control or spin out - would you blame it all on their own mental mistakes and ignore their difficult machinery, dismissing it as something they knowingly "signed up to?"

I understand Rosberg was a rookie, and should be given some slack - but to make my point, in that one season alone, Rosberg had more retirements due to accidents than in any three of Sato's seasons combined (coincidentally, Felipe Massa's rookie year also saw five retirements due to accidents). Additionally, I've never seen a disqualification from taking out one's own teammate since that alone is penalty enough.

There have been far more severe incidents that have occurred without penalty. Take, for example, David Coulthard just this season. He nearly decapitated Alex Wurz in Melboune, attempting a pass from way behind - a driver with his amount of experience should show better judgment. His car climbed over the top of Wurz's car, the sidepod with its sharp aerodynamic element slicing inches away from Wurz's visor. Despite the severity of the accident and coming inches away from crushing Wurz's helmet, Coulthard was not penalized. I'm sure if instead it was Sato involved, people would be screaming disparaging attacks at Sato. And speaking of blue-flags, just this weekend in Monaco, Coulthard blocked Kovalainen during Kovalainen's hot lap in qualifying and ultimately started the race with only a two-spot penalty, still ahead of Kovalainen, whose potentially faster lap he had ruined.

ConsFW
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Joined: 24 Jul 2006, 23:25

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f1.redbaron wrote: You give retarded statistics that mean absolutely nothing, and cite red bulletin? Are you serious?
So the statistics are "retarded"... wait I have to find my dictionary

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f1.redbaron
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ConsFW wrote:
So the statistics are "retarded"... wait I have to find my dictionary
Well, here, I'll offer you my explanation of the phrase "retarder statistics". I'll save you some time.

Compare the two drivers. Takuma "The next Schumacher" Sato, and the guy he's supposed to replace, Ralf Schumacher.

Wins:

Ralf: 6
Sato: 0
Statistically speaking Sato will never win a race.


Podiums:

Ralf: 27
Sato: 1
Statistically speaking, Ralf is 27 times more likely to be on the podium than Sato.


Points:

Ralf: 325
Sato: 41
Statistically speaking, Ralf will score 8 points for each one of Sato's.


Fastest Laps:

Ralf: 7
Sato: 0
Statistically speaking, Sato will never have a fastest lap.


Poles:

Ralf: 6
Sato: 0
Statistically speaking, Sato will never have a pole

----------

All of these number point to the simple fact that Sato is not a good replacement for Ralf. But do they really mean anything? Absolutely not. Compare Massa's points with Ferrari to his points when he drove with Sauber and you will notice a significant difference. That just goes to show you that statistics in sports are just a bunch of numbers created for some, usually dumb NFL fans, who will spend their Sundays endlessly talking about how many more yards will Brett Favre throw for, when the temperature is 37F or less...in other words, meaningless data!

Going back to F1, if the numbers should be used to determine the best choice of a driver, then why was Montoya (a proven winner) replaced with Hamilton (a man who had never driven an F1 car in race), or why was Michael Schumacher replaced with Kimi Raikkonen, when the numbers are clearly on Michael's side?

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