max wants to bring back overtaking

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mx_tifoso
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Joined: 30 Nov 2006, 05:01
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tf1 wrote:I think one of the easiest ways to do this is to add a clutch pedal and a shift lever. The cornering speeds are almost guaranteed to drop because the drivers have to do a lot more. Plus it'd be more entertaining because it would require a lot more skill.
Adding drum brakes would also increase braking distances, and cornering speeds would also drop. Maybe F1 should bring that back as well.

In part the reason we follow F1 is because of the technology levels, and the entire aura it has. Bringing back old technologies (at least for F1) is not the best idea, neither is comparing current drivers with A.Senna. Lets keep the Semi-Autos and completely take away TC for good; thats surely to increase the skill level needed for good results from the drivers, especially in wet conditions. This the least that could happen in order to increase overtaking during F1 races. I'm sure there are many more possibilities.
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eidetic
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Joined: 07 Jun 2007, 13:25

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Just my two cent, as someone new to the forum, but not new to F1, but admittedly less knowledgeable than a lot of others on here. This post is also partially about the "the good old days" and not just passing in general. However, I see a lot of people here and on the Speed Channel forums longing for the good old days, often accompanied by some comment that there was more passing back then.

While I would like to see some more overtaking, I think a big problem is that we don't see a lot of the overtaking going on. The world feed often seems to fixate on a few select drivers, including the leader, and so we often seem to miss some of the passes - though we often see them in replay after the fact.

Also, am I the only one who thinks that passing SHOULD be difficult? Racing is as much about passing as it is avoiding being passed. To me, the fact that passing is so difficult just makes passes that much more interesting and memorable.

And sort of along the same lines, for those complaining about (the lack of) overtaking, and complaining about faster cars being held up by slower cars, if you increase passing by making it easier, I have a feeling all you're going to see is slightly more passing early on in the race, followed by the last 3/4 of the race being a parade. After all, if passing is made easier, it seems likely that the faster driver/car combos will get sort themselves quicker. I'm not stating this as fact, but as what I think would be the logical outcome, and I'm really curious to what others think about this.

I didn't start following F1 till about 1993 when I was 11 or 12, and even then it was mostly through magazines and whatnot, as I lacked any way to consistently watch the races. That said, I have gone and watched a lot of races from times gone by, basically just about every race I could get my hands on. While there were some select classic battles "back in the day", I don't see overtaking being that much more prevalent in yesteryears as people seem to make it out to be. To me it reminds me of music or movies. People always say music and movies from times gone by were so much better than that of today, yet they forget all that crap and fluff from those times. To me, it's a similar thing in F1 - people only remember that which was worth remembering. Surely people don't remember every single race from each season. People aren't going to remember the snoozers of races - they're going to remember the exciting races. In the short time I've been able to watch F1 on a consistent basis, I remember quite a few exciting races and moments.

I guess a good example is how the Dijon '79 battle between Arnoux and Villeneuve gets posted quite a bit as an example of when racing was "better". If it was so much better back then, why aren't there more clips like this one being posted constantly?

Also, I've seen in the past people showing off the Senna holding off Mansell (at Monaco) video as an example of cars being able to follow each other closely. Yet no one ever seems to realize that while Mansell is following closer than what might normally be possible today, it also shows that bringing back H pattern gearboxes, etc isn't necessarily going to be a magic fix.

I'm not saying anyone here is guilty of these two examples, just something I've noticed over the years as I've become more involved in F1 forums.


Anyway, please go easy on me, I'm new here, so try not to rip my arguement into too many tiny pieces :) .

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Ciro Pabón
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Well, I agree. Welcome to the forum, eidetic.

Let me add that in the thread on Canadian GP, checkered pointed to the Friday conference:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59538

where Pat Symons says:
Pat Symonds: I think that one of the interesting things about the homologated engines is that it was done at one of the few times in the history of Formula One when engines were remarkably even and that surprised me because it was a new formula, the 2.4 V8 ... the fact that the 2.4 V8 is a very limited design anyway, in terms of its mass, its centre of gravity and a lot of principal dimensions, it probably meant that there wasn't a lot of room to manoeuvre anyway.

Now when you couple that with an imposed rev limit, I think actually the engines are remarkably even, and probably more even than I remember for many years.

Willy Rampf: I basically confirm what Pat says. With the same design, V8, everything is so specified: crankshaft heights, centre of gravity and I think the major part, the rev limiter, is the same for all the engines. I think there is not a lot of scope for a huge difference in engine performance.
Ciro

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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I think after some of the overtaking and attempts we had today then perhaps we should race Montreal more often. Did anyone else nearly wet themselves when Sato took Alonso?
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bizadfar
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007, 15:51

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Tom wrote:I think after some of the overtaking and attempts we had today then perhaps we should race Montreal more often. Did anyone else nearly wet themselves when Sato took Alonso?
no, he was on the tyre to be on. The crazy tyre rules did some good today.

That white substance they laid on the track after Kubica's crash (and other parts where there was debris) should be thoroghly cleaned off later! It seemed to reduce overtaking a lot in the hairpin. Anyone who tried was guaranteed to go straight on.

modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
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Tom wrote:I think after some of the overtaking and attempts we had today then perhaps we should race Montreal more often. Did anyone else nearly wet themselves when Sato took Alonso?
I watched the race in a place called "TRACK BAR" and the whole damn room was standing applauding! :)

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Tom
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That white stuff is concrete dust which is put down to soak up oil, trust me oil is alot more slippery although a major dissadvantage with the dust as I witnessed at a BTCC support race on the Croft circuit a few years ago, if too much is put down the leading car picks it up and blinds everyone behind, in the case I saw a Renault Clio cup car did a stunning spin the length of the runway, and managed not to lose any positions, but otherwise the concequences don't bear contemplating.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

bizadfar
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007, 15:51

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Thanks Tom.

I think Montreal, the run down to the hairpin (turn 10?) should lengthened all the way back to where the gravel is now and extend the runoff zone. Is there even any room left there to extend it?

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
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They would have to move the stands and also that hairpin turn is right near the edge of the island which meants the St.Lawerence river I believe..hard to do..I just hope that they update the track with new facilities.
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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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Heres an idea to increase overtaking. Every driver who finishes on the lead lap should be given an electric shock after the race depending where they qualified and how many cars they overtook. i.e. pole would get no shock, 2nd would get a shock if he didn't pass another car on track for position, 3rd would get 2 shocks...

A high enough voltage would surely encourage them to overtake a little more.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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Image

I finished just ahead of Ralf.

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Militia Est Vita
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Joined: 11 Jun 2007, 15:26
Location: Mexico

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59983

Not brand new information, just as backgrpudn for my question. First of all I think that I there is just one chasis for everybody the mere essence of F1 is gone, or at least the biggest part of it.

Now, what do you think of flexi wings? will they realy make a big difference to allow more overtaking and how is this possible?

Saribro
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Joined: 28 Jul 2006, 00:34

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Oh for --- sake, why does that imbicile keep coming up with entirely the -wrong- proposals every time....

Ogami musashi
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007, 22:57

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I think this is a good alternative.

Just that if he wants to level the show..this is not the good way. Aeroelasticity is hell harder than aerodynamics alone so again the one that will research the most will gain the most.

For sure, if he wants level playfield then standard chassis was the way to go, but then it is not F1 anymore...


By the way i'm happy of this alternative this means better aeros and i'm also quite sceptical it will happens because this is a straight way to more speed...(less drag for an equal downforce=less power required, so at a fixed power=more speed and also, flexibale aero= optimums aero= more downforce).

But that would be viable in term of overtaking yes.

miqi23
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Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 02:31
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Oh yeah! Moveable Aero, I was in support of this thing all this time and it is good they are considering it. The question is though - How much movement would be permitted? Aeroelasticity is indeed one thing but what about moveable devices in terms of flaps? These can fixed on a sidepod and lifted up while cornering and following another car. The downforce gained in that case is enough to keep you close to the second car even though if you are running in its wake.

This can be a good answer but hey its just a thought :wink: Doesnt cost anything after all! What do you think? I can perhaps do some calculations and show it work...