Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Wow, so many valid arguments, and worth thinking about ... despite differences of opinions.
We the fans tune into the races to be entertained. Maybe some like NASCAR style, bold and brutal, while for others F1 with it's delicate cars and intrigue provide amusement. And let's face it, dust-ups, whether verbal or with fists provides memorable memories. I like it, it's like the extra sauce on a juicy steak.
Let's face it, Alonso is a poor loser, and not a gracious winner. That's just his personality, like it or hate it. But like others, I judge a driver by how he handles his car, not his mouth or temper. Even a dick can be a great driver, which to me is what Alonso is.
I've developed a growing appreciation and respect for Massa recently, he really has improved all aspects of his driving. And he does try to conduct himself with dignity and class. It's just that in the post-race events, he refused to allow Alonso push him around with his comments.
But in the final analysis, the FIA enforces behaviours and the rules. If they have no issue with Alonso's pass and the contact, and take no action concerning the verbal diarrhea match, then we just try to respect their decision, and look forward to Hungary.
Consider for a second what we would all be saying if, in that overtaking move, Alonso was knocked off the track and out of the race. Half the people here would be saying Massa/Ferrari did it deliberately to scuttle Alonso. The other half would be saying Alonso made a crazy overtaking move.
On looking at the video over and over, it looks to me like Massa got a little bit out of shape and couldn't avoid Alonso - so it was essentially his doing - however light. Alonso did have a reason to be worried since he couldn't see the replays or Massa being a tiny bit out of shape in the corner exit until well after the podium ceremony - so he was probably on edge thinking Massa had knocked him deliberately. As it turned out In the end he won and probably feels like a bit of an ass after seeing the footage of the move and his chat with Massa.
I don't think this incident is even remotely significant except for the post-race 'chat' they had. It's nothing compared to MS in Monaco's qualifying last year, nor the years and years F1 has put up with the 2nd red car subtly hindering other cars for MS's benefit. (I.e: get off the high horse if you think Ferrari are faultless - they aren't even close)
Rob W wrote:(I.e: get off the high horse if you think Ferrari are faultless - they aren't even close)
No one thinks/believes that Ferrari are faultless. Not even the loyal fans. We might be fans, but we're not blind nor ignorant. And even with what they have done in the past, we still accept them and remain loyal.
I'm sure every team has had their high's and low's, but it is ok, because mishaps happen. Nothing nor anyone is perfect.
And what happened with Massa and Alonso is ok. No one did anything wrong. It certainly adds some spice to F1, so what is their to complain about?
I'll second the last 3 comments, F1 has always been contraversial so why are we making such a fuss about one of the least contraversial parts in 57 years?
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.
Alonso obviously did not have the benefit of the helicopter footage or any footage for that matter. He did not get an objective overview of the situation. He passed Massa, and felt him slam hard into the car. At that point, he must've thought that Massa was trying to crash him off the track. The argument they had before the podium was before any them saw any footage that give them a good perspective on the whole battle, so they reacted like any person would. They think they are both right.
In the end, it is a bit immature of Alonso to be such a sore winner. Usually people aren't upset as long as they win.
I fail to see what Alonso did wrong. Massa hit him on the sidepod on purpose. That's wrong. I don't understand how the previous style of both drivers influences that.
You know, Dave is, sometimes a little too much non-judgmental. He might be a good parent and a bad referee, if you ask me (sorry, Dave, you know I love your style and that I have the opposite defect: I'm a little too much judgmental).
Never a problem Ciro, maybe you're seeing the feminine side of me... ROFLMAO.
Actually I'm very judgemental, I just don't believe in trashing drivers willy nilly.
Even a dick can be a great driver, which to me is what Alonso is.
que? lol
I have the most incredible respect for each and every Formula One driver. They have incredible talent, and have to perform very difficult tasks under the most intense pressure, all the while under a microscope. A little hand for the drivers, please, they make the show happen. =D>
I agree Dave, they all do a great job.
I reacently did a race down the main street of the local town. It was a tight twisty track and my car was as suited to it as a tank (and my driving was appaling), after struggling baddly on my first attempt I started to become less aware of the audience and did a little better until the last run when I managed to pull off a respectable reverse flick in a car that didn't want to change direction, before slamming it straight into third. While wrestling with the gearstick I anihalated a few cones and was left sitting in the middle of the car park/track repeatedly stalling, all too aware of the audience now laughing their heads off. It was demoralising but I eventually found gear 'x' and slipped the hell out of the clutch to drag the thing to the finish line.
It was one of the worst and most embarassing experiences of my life, but in retrospect I learned alot, namely don't panic, don't think of the people watching and respect that if you're ever to become a good driver you are going to have bad days, at which point you may feel like packing it all in. If you can get straight into the car and start competing again after a day like that then you're stronger than I am, I couldn't have gone out again after that, but each driver in F1 has had that same experience on a far larger, a global, scale and each has pulled through to reach the pinacle of motorsport. For this I can only congratulate them. =D>
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.
Bit off thread, but here's a hint Tom. Many years ago at turn 5a at Mosport, a club racer in a Golf lost it under braking, got sideways, and did a very neat barrel roll off the track. What did the driver do? He jumped out of his car, raised both arms up to the crowd, and jumped up in down in a display of celebration. The crowd went wild, and cheered him for the screw-up, but a very nice roll. Revel in your good moves, and enjoy the screw-ups, because you can't do much else about it.
Thanks Dave, thats a good plan, but this situation wasn't one I'm used to, we rarely have many spectators and usually they appreciate its not as easy as it looks, this time it was a bunch of boy racers and BMW drivers so their reaction to it all put me off more than anything.
In the past I've come very close to rolling, landed again and carried on making sure to wave at the (open mouthed) organisers but its my last race with the club and my old shedX next weekend so I'm going to try and roll her into a little ball. I'll make sure to laugh it off
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.
I think Massa has adopted a "if I'm wrong I'll be the first one to admit it" since that race when he went off trying to overtake Hamilton, and in Barcelona. On the other hand, when he's not wrong he just wont take any c**p from anybody. Nobody lets anybody overtake easily nowadays, he had a bad set of tyres, thats all, nobody was hurt.
Being Brazilian I've seen countless interviews with all the greats (Piquet, Senna, Massa) and the others... I can guarantee you, Piquet would have done it on purpose , Senna wouldnt have needed to (but would have said that a mysterious invisible force was pushing him all the way) and Massa is an ethical guy, he just drives.
DaveKillens wrote:Wow, so many valid arguments, and worth thinking about ... despite differences of opinions.
We the fans tune into the races to be entertained. Maybe some like NASCAR style, bold and brutal, while for others F1 with it's delicate cars and intrigue provide amusement. And let's face it, dust-ups, whether verbal or with fists provides memorable memories. I like it, it's like the extra sauce on a juicy steak.
Let's face it, Alonso is a poor loser, and not a gracious winner. That's just his personality, like it or hate it. But like others, I judge a driver by how he handles his car, not his mouth or temper. Even a dick can be a great driver, which to me is what Alonso is.
I've developed a growing appreciation and respect for Massa recently, he really has improved all aspects of his driving. And he does try to conduct himself with dignity and class. It's just that in the post-race events, he refused to allow Alonso push him around with his comments.
But in the final analysis, the FIA enforces behaviours and the rules. If they have no issue with Alonso's pass and the contact, and take no action concerning the verbal diarrhea match, then we just try to respect their decision, and look forward to Hungary.
Bravo Dave!
In last 6-7 years we lost all excitement in F1. Drivers start to act like ballet dancers. Very sophisticated and gentle like flower. Don’t touch me, don’t look at me like that, watch your driving!!! Don’t show me a bad finger!!! Alonso is a very bad loser and we have opportunity to see this in few occasions. He is a crybabie!Looks like he forget (or maybe he never know) about fight on track. Massa is pure Brazilian, hot bladed, and he don’t like to lose. He starting to be pure racer. I like that!
marcosp wrote:Senna wouldnt have needed to (but would have said that a mysterious invisible force was pushing him all the way)
Sorry, all your post falls apart from this statement. Remember Hungary 1990 and the move on Nannini on turn 6, one of the dirtiest I have the displeasure to watch in F1...
