Super League Formula

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

Super League Formula

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Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

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NumberTwo
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Joined: 07 May 2007, 03:30

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I have thought that the sad part about that car is that since it is an American-desingned chassis/engine combination, it would be the perfect single-series car to put North American open wheel racing back on track by replacing the ChampCar/IRL mess we have now.

As it is, the chassis would be a natural for the great road courses from Canada to Brazil (I still think the old Mexico City track was one of the best F1 races, perhaps worthy of revival here). And imagining it running the streets of Vancouver, Long Beach, Surfers' Paradise or Santiago isn't difficult. Surely Panoz/Elan can easily design a wing--or lack-there-of--package for the ovals like Indy and Milwaukee.

With 750 hp from 4.2 litres at only 10,750 rpm, the Menard V-12 isn't exactly overstressed at it's 12,000 rpm redline. A reliable engine it should prove to be, with a cosiderable torque advantage over the current powerplants.

But to have an American race car/engine package like this running around Europe in football colors while American open wheel racing dies from bloated egos and insane politics is terrible.

Ogami musashi
Ogami musashi
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007, 22:57

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We'll see what the sport will give, technically wise it seems promising.
The plans are to make it faster than GP2.

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Scuderia_Russ
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004, 22:24
Location: Motorsport Valley, England.

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Just what we need, another one make formula! :roll: Half of the people photographed next to cars look completely bemused. Am I the only one that thinks this looks terrible?
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

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Scuderia_Russ wrote:Just what we need, another one make formula! :roll: Half of the people photographed next to cars look completely bemused. Am I the only one that thinks this looks terrible?
Looks waaaaaaay better than A1GP cars :roll:

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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Scuderia_Russ wrote:Am I the only one that thinks this looks terrible?
I don't know if

"terrible" is the word. I'm struggling with the concept myself. The whole thing seems a bit "Spice Girlsey" to me - well, to be absolutely honest, not just "a bit". I'm sure there are real people involved who actually are passionate about motorsports, but as to the added value this provides - your guess is as good as mine. Anyone know whether any of the teams (are there many?) Ecclestone or Briatore are the owners of are planning to participate?

One make formulae tend to lack depth and I've yet to see one that'd have made up for it by marketing alone. One can sense that they are less inclusive, less elemental, less evolving even without being knowledgeable about the technology involved. How does a single make formula carry the passion of a team - in the livery? Pah-leese. There's added value in different teams having different temperaments. And no, I'm not going to start watching men kicking a ball around just because F1 bigwigs are involved. I don't follow sports (or any other activity) by portfolio. That's just too absurd on so many levels.

I agree with Number Two - it's surreal that these cars are made in the US while the local open wheel racing is pretty much in the doldrums. But this project is not the only one to emerge recently, there's also the new Formula Nippon car and I'm sure there were other projects, too. This might precede a major development, people realising there's a technological basis for an innovative and interesting formula to appear. I wouldn't be surprised if such a thing made massive use of all kinds of interactivity, especially online. Or am I being irrationally exuberant here?

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
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They seem to turn out a new chassis /engine for a new open wheel series every week, twice a week, must be about 20 series now. Super League? Next week the Ultra League? How can anyone buy or build a car, doesn't it cost hundreds of millions? I am beginning to have my doubts.

As discussed on PM ... I am starting to suspect it does not take 150M to design a formula car. Look how many formula series exist. Look how many different companies make chassis. I suspect a motor does not cost the GNP of a small country to develop.

I remember a time when a Swedish tool maker built a 500cc V8, cast his own block in the shed, used 8 barrels and 8 Honda 50cc motorbike heads and cobbled up a crank. At the Motor Racing Car Shows in Italy you used to see 4 or 5 little companies that all made 1000cc V8 for different series. Impossible to do an engine block in your garage. Google "home made propane forge", I just did , took 20 seconds, let's watch the video Hmmmmmm :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-MHpJj8ykc

You say...Carlos is "le ancient 60's artifacto"... recalling the days in the 60's when a Bosch "sparking plug" cost 85 cents . Completely wrong. Completely.

Couple of years ago I went to look at a Kawasaki 350cc that I saw in the paper. The seller was about 25... worked in a little welding plant. The 350 was really cheap but had a non factory 3 into one header, beautiful shaped and welded, smart brackets, shapely bends. I asked. He made it himself. Told him it was hard to believe. He walked me across the garage to show me his 170000USD, Triumph triple he bought the year before. The header was a mess, the welds uneven with spatters under the chrome, a real piece of cr :wink: p. He said the header on the 350 was practise and he was doing a set of headers for his Triumph next. Lets watch another video. Maybe we don't have to pay 400USD for a Panhard Rod or Watts linkage to cure that annoying rear axle wobble on your MGB ... oh wait, thats ancient. Hmmmm :wink:

Here is another propane forge, just set up on some guy's work bench, out in his ordinary garage, behind his house, somewhere in a suburb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=284yI79O4bc

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NumberTwo
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Joined: 07 May 2007, 03:30

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Nope, Carlos, I don't think it's as difficult as it would seem. Especially today with CAD/CAM. You can design and test everything until you are satisfied in a week on the computer where it used to take a year to design, cut, weld, take to track, test, redesign, cut apart, reweld, etc..

Want to start designing at home?

http://www.ssapubl.com/productList.aspx?media=Software

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

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Here in Argentina, a couple of years ago, a new stock car serie appeared - TOP RACE V6- just a bunch of Fords Mondeo, VW Passat, Renault Laguna, Peugeot 406 and Chevrolet Vectra, among others.
Car where painted in Football team colors, even with the badges and cheer girls.
The Argentine "Bernie" said: "Oh, it would be nice to mix 2 sports that has so many passionate fans" -
I think he believed that with this idea he would have a lot of car and football fans buying momerabilia and going to the races.
Nothing happened.

The series is still alive, just because there are good drivers from other famous ones (TC and TC2000) and has calendar is only 8 races, all the sundays where the other 2 series don´t race.

Football team badges and colors? Gone, replaced by common sponsors.

PD: I also agree with the idea that designing and making open wheelers is not as difficult or expensive as it seems.
What it is expensive is refining the car to the point that is 3 seconds faster than another car built under the same technical rules.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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Thanks Number Two - I've added it to the Engineering Student Resources ( After all we are all students) and my own favourites. Very inexpensive software and relevant books.

Belatti ... "3 seconds faster"... your right...that does sound like the real tricky part of building a race car.

spk072
spk072
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Joined: 12 Jun 2007, 15:02

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I'm always up for good racing, however I don't have a clue which teams are which guess I'll pick one that has the coolest colors or emblem. Do they plan on having the hooligans attend the races?

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Scuderia_Russ
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Joined: 17 Jan 2004, 22:24
Location: Motorsport Valley, England.

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Belatti wrote:Here in Argentina, a couple of years ago, a new stock car serie appeared - TOP RACE V6-[/b]

LOL, must have taken them ages to think that name up. Maybe it's lost in translation.
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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Carlos wrote:They seem to turn out a new chassis /engine for a new open wheel series every week, twice a week, must be about 20 series now. Super League? Next week the Ultra League? How can anyone buy or build a car, doesn't it cost hundreds of millions? I am beginning to have my doubts.
Of course N.Technology

started the new Formula Master series this year, too. Impressive looking equipment for a Formula 3 equivalent. Another interesting example of recent race car design.

F1 might actually be facing an interesting crises in how powerful, cheap and easy to use design and fabricating tools are soon to become (or are already) - even at the very highest end. And how educated people are and will become. Spending $300M a season on going 1 sec per lap faster than a competitor in another series that spends, say, $25M per season on directly comparable equipment is in fact going to be highly embarrasing. That won't matter of course, if your main market is the Paris Hilton crowd, or the 1000 or so billionaires in the World and their extended families. Briatore has an aptly named brand set up already, but as I see it the raison d'être of F1 can't consist of being the biggest spender alone ... but that's what we're headed for, faster than ever with the prolonged freezes and rules that make any significant technological advances impossible. It's a sad commentary on our World if that happens, but it might.

In fact, if everything goes OK in how design and manufacturing processes evolve in general, it's soon very hard to be as wasteful as F1 is going to become comparing bang for the buck, bang for the engineer and bang for the gallon. A thorough rethink about what is relevant and applicable in this World is required, and has been required for quite some time already. We don't need a 95% spec open wheel race car series for the pinnacle of motorsport.

Perhaps what we need is a spec resource open wheel racing series with a high degree of design freedom. Such an organisation would have virtual design teams and two or three identical manufacturing campuses where all the allowed physical equipment (autoclaves, wind tunnels, test facilities) would be situated. Marketing would be run by the overall organisation, every team would have the same budget, the same amount of personnel, the same computers and programs, the same amount of time. Every design would have to be generated by and originate from the allowed resources only - demonstratably so. Each car would have the same amount of energy allocated per race. Only the quality of your ideas could put you in an advantage, nothing else. Ideas are the ultimate capital, not money. Profits would be distributed according to success to the team owners/members, but couldn't be added to the team budget.

That way it's not necessary to spend 10 times over what others are spending to be "the pinnacle". Two, three times is plenty, while all kinds of efficiency and ecology related innovations remain possible and in fact very likely to emerge. Incidentally, Gordon Kirby laments the rise of the spec age and considers how we should move forward in his latest column "The Way It Is/ Do aesthetics matter in racing today?". Well worth a read. (I disagree to a degree with his assertion that aerodynamics have had a deleterious effect on the look of racing cars. To me, all the winglets are just a further example of impractical regulations. But that's details.)

Is F1 losing its focus? Or is it gaining one? I don't know, but the emergence of Superleague Formula and series of its ilk is bound to reflect on F1, too. It's another thing altogether if F1 dares to look in that mirror and draw conclusions.

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zenvision
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Joined: 12 Sep 2006, 19:06
Location: Malta

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I admit that I don't see much junior formulae racing (getting motors tv soon, yay :lol: ) but I caught the last race of the Master series at Monza and have been deeply impressed by the racing, or rather the drafting. It seemed like watching a race in a bygone era, where the 3rd car would jump first and excitement till the last corners. Provided that each series is cost efficient and provide this type of entertainment, I can only see it as a plus having more formulae.
"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build good engines" Enzo Ferrari