Half-Time report : TC Ban

[WhiteBlue]

It is not TC though is it?

it is not, but with unlimited mapping technology you can achieve the same as with TC.

[CMSMJ1]

It is not unlimited mapping either..

You might be missing the woods by looking at the trees...

It is not an issue..the playing field is flat, the gaols are the same size...and anyone can have flaps/paddles adn rotary knobs to adjust mapping as they see fit.

All the while it is not TC

[WhiteBlue]

I havn't said it is TC but it achieves much of the same. It has long been the philosoophy of the FIA that the gas pedal stroke must must be translated into a direct throttle command to the engine.

What is now achieved is a speed dependant modulation of the throttle command. Obviously the gears are related to speed intervals of the car. You can hugely desensitise the throttle in low gears to make it easier for the driver to control the car in slow corners. It surely helps the drivers who do not have such good throttle control. But that is not what the fans and the federation want.

My conclusion is that it should be banned at the end of the season. Then all teams will have it anyway and it would not be messing with a championship.

[twoshots]

I'm not sure I follow you WhiteBlue. The paddles should be banned or the whole range of knobs/paddles that allow engine mapping changes?

[WhiteBlue]

The paddle solution for sure. About the knobs and dials one can have different opinion. They are not associated with speed ranges. What is the point of hzaving drivers fiddle with theese things and on top variable wings, KERS and a ton of other stuff?

[Belatti]

Personally, I tend to agree with what Button said a few years ago, and that is, "If you are a good enough driver, the TC never actually engages."

Well, I bet my grandma wont make TC engage, but would lap in 15 minutes at monza

[twoshots]

The paddle solution for sure. About the knobs and dials one can have different opinion. They are not associated with speed ranges. What is the point of hzaving drivers fiddle with theese things and on top variable wings, KERS and a ton of other stuff?

Interesting, but I think I disagree. The paddles are ergonomically much better than dials/knobs but if anything they offer less variability in engine map selection. The paddles imply stepping through a discrete set of engine mappings. Whereas a rotary dial implies a continuous range of values. That aside I think you ban it or you don't, banning a particular design which just happens to be ergonomically superior seems a little odd.

What is now achieved is a speed dependant modulation of the throttle command. Obviously the gears are related to speed intervals of the car. You can hugely desensitise the throttle in low gears to make it easier for the driver to control the car in slow corners. It surely helps the drivers who do not have such good throttle control.

Hmm, no it is not really modulation in the same sense as TC. TC is a feedback loop, this is a manually altered gain change on the throttle command which uses the driver as the feedback mechanism to determine the gain change. TC did not use the driver in the loop at all, allowing the to drive out of corners at 100% throttle requiring no input from the driver. If you want ban the idea then you make sure you fix the throttle map for the entire race. How you go about doing it without inserting more spec I don't know.

[ReubenG]

I agree with most of twoshot's comments, barring the variability of the rotary dials on the steering wheel - as I understand these select discrete options for the relevant function, be it TC, engine map etc.

TC only refers to a closed loop control system that responds to wheel spin, excess yaw / roll etc by changing wheel torque / braking etc, without any driver input.

I would support most measures that allow the driver to vary some parameter on the car, rather than it being controlled by the ECU - yes it gives the driver more to think about in the cockpit but it allows for more variation in driving styles. Mention has already been made of Michael Schumacher and his constant fiddling with brake bias - IMO these are the same - a driver is changing some parameter that will give him better traction through the next corner.

[WhiteBlue]

As always one can have different opinions about the way forward. I respect that. In the end one can have different objectives regarding the desireability of computer assists to the driver. I do not support it.

[Conceptual]

that the teams put triggers on the steering wheel that allow the driver to "boost" the left or right front wheels.

Awesome idea!

Could you imagine the rotation that you could get the car to do?

And of course, once on the straight, you could pull both triggers. And I bet that it would help alot on spin composure. In a FWD car in the snow, if you start to spin, you simply downshift, point where you want to go, and stand on the gas. I have personally spun on the highway at 60mph due to a snow drift, and caught it and kept going. My brother actually threw up after that move, since we were looking at a stone wall on one side, and a 30 foot drop on the other. LOL

And yes, I made him clean up his mess!

But back to the trigger-boost of the front wheels. If they added that with the AWD KERS, we could see regen and boost simultaneously. Especially during hairpin cornering, since boosting the outside front wheel could also have a power decrease on the inside rear wheel. If that decrease could be linked to the KERS regen system, then it may offset the power used to boost the front wheel, increasing the overall efficiency of the system.

Chris

[CMSMJ1]

I think I would rather have TC back than gimmicky individual dirven front wheels on triggers/paddles etc?

Anyways - back on topic - TC removal has fundamentally changed nothing about the racing or the durability of tyres etc has it??

The "best" teams keep winning..

Saying that, I see that gap from front to back has shrunk to 2secs which is strange to see after growing up with Ayrton Senna taking pole by over a second at some places...

@ Whiteblue - I agree that we should put a ot of the electronic aids back in the boxes and begin to involve the driver even more in the performance balance which in recent years has been heavily biased towards the cars.

[DaveKillens]

Personally, I appreciate the innovative method McLaren have for these paddles. No doubt they simulate TC situations. But as far as making them illegal, I doubt it. First off, the new ECU is built with the ability for multiple mappings. Secondly, there are many ways to put in place devices that mimic TC. Heck, you could just increase the mass of the clutch, and get results. So let the teams run with it, who knows, somehow this form of technology may actually work for production cars. I don't know how, but let's keep the door open for such kinds of innovation.

Off-topic, but Belatti, your comments about your grandmother reminds me of mine, and this http://youtube.com/watch?v=dmkRcmUCXOg

[myurr]

Personally, I appreciate the innovative method McLaren have for these paddles. No doubt they simulate TC situations. But as far as making them illegal, I doubt it. First off, the new ECU is built with the ability for multiple mappings. Secondly, there are many ways to put in place devices that mimic TC. Heck, you could just increase the mass of the clutch, and get results. So let the teams run with it, who knows, somehow this form of technology may actually work for production cars. I don't know how, but let's keep the door open for such kinds of innovation.

Off-topic, but Belatti, your comments about your grandmother reminds me of mine, and this http://youtube.com/watch?v=dmkRcmUCXOg

Either I'm really not getting it at all, or there are a lot of people that don't know what TC is!

With McLaren's system, if you stamp on the accelerator you get wheel spin - with TC you don't.

All McLaren have done is make it easier to change engine map - something every driver on the grid can do. Full stop. No ifs no buts, every driver can do this. The _only_ difference is that the McLaren drivers can keep both hands on the wheel whilst doing this.

It's not traction control. It's nothing like traction control. There is no computer involvement, there is no system in place which limits or stops wheelspin. The throttle is not modulated on the drivers behalf. There is no artificial intelligence in the system. There are no sensors allowing any automated processes to take place. It really has nothing to do with traction control!

[Scotracer]

Personally, I appreciate the innovative method McLaren have for these paddles. No doubt they simulate TC situations. But as far as making them illegal, I doubt it. First off, the new ECU is built with the ability for multiple mappings. Secondly, there are many ways to put in place devices that mimic TC. Heck, you could just increase the mass of the clutch, and get results. So let the teams run with it, who knows, somehow this form of technology may actually work for production cars. I don't know how, but let's keep the door open for such kinds of innovation.

Off-topic, but Belatti, your comments about your grandmother reminds me of mine, and this http://youtube.com/watch?v=dmkRcmUCXOg

Either I'm really not getting it at all, or there are a lot of people that don't know what TC is!

With McLaren's system, if you stamp on the accelerator you get wheel spin - with TC you don't.

All McLaren have done is make it easier to change engine map - something every driver on the grid can do. Full stop. No ifs no buts, every driver can do this. The _only_ difference is that the McLaren drivers can keep both hands on the wheel whilst doing this.

It's not traction control. It's nothing like traction control. There is no computer involvement, there is no system in place which limits or stops wheelspin. The throttle is not modulated on the drivers behalf. There is no artificial intelligence in the system. There are no sensors allowing any automated processes to take place. It really has nothing to do with traction control!

Yup, moving a system from Rotary switch to paddle on the back of the wheel does not make it illegal!

[myurr]

Yup, moving a system from Rotary switch to paddle on the back of the wheel does not make it illegal!

But apparently it means you can equate it to TC.