Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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roost89
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Joined: 10 Apr 2008, 19:34
Location: Highlands, Scotland

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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jddh1 wrote:Team: OK Lewis, you should need to make sure your delta is positive over the safety car line. After the safety car line the delta doesn’t matter but no overtaking. No overtaking.
What does Delta mean? I've heard it a few times this season, it may have been used in previous seasons and washed over but I'm picking it up more and more.

DC refers to Button knowing that his in-lap delta would've been good at the end of this video
"It could be done manually. It would take quite a while, but it could be done. There is however a much more efficient and accurate way of getting the data. Men with lasers." Wing Commander Andy Green

vall
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Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 21:31

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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it is not the first time LH spots an opportunity to gain unfair advantage and he takes it enthusiastically. Hungary 2008, Spa 2008, Aus 2009, perhaps there are more......

nudger
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Joined: 27 Feb 2009, 00:20

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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hulmerist wrote:
McLaren being caught lying through the actions of Ryan and Hamilton is one thing; if it turns out that they have properly scapegoated Ryan and lied again about who knew about what was going on, I would fear for the consequences on their behalf. The FIA is not going to like that at all. The Times does in fact have an admission of sorts on this issue but it would be improper to report it here at this stage.
http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_ ... marsh.html
thats what they call a witch hunt.
it is just ridiculous to micro analyse people in such a way. Everybody becomes a liar and a cheat when you start doing that.

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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roost89 wrote:What does Delta mean? I've heard it a few times this season, it may have been used in previous seasons and washed over but I'm picking it up more and more.
Bravo = B
Charlie = C
Foxtrot = F
Delta = D
Golf = G

It's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_phonetic_alphabet

donskar
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007, 16:41
Location: Cardboard box, end of Boulevard of Broken Dreams
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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roost89 wrote:
jddh1 wrote:Team: OK Lewis, you should need to make sure your delta is positive over the safety car line. After the safety car line the delta doesn’t matter but no overtaking. No overtaking.
What does Delta mean? I've heard it a few times this season, it may have been used in previous seasons and washed over but I'm picking it up more and more.

DC refers to Button knowing that his in-lap delta would've been good at the end of this video

"Delta" is biz talk for "difference" or "gap"
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

donskar
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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That the Stewards disqualified Hamilton for fibbing and misleading them is very silly too, a driver or team should never be in a position to mislead the Stewards anyhow.
Uh-huh. I've been waiting for this one. So you are blaming the Stewards for McLaren lying to them? And the police cause people to commit crimes? And Ferrari was to blame for allowing themselved to be robbed?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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lkocev
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Joined: 25 Jan 2009, 08:34

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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donskar wrote:
That the Stewards disqualified Hamilton for fibbing and misleading them is very silly too, a driver or team should never be in a position to mislead the Stewards anyhow.
Uh-huh. I've been waiting for this one. So you are blaming the Stewards for McLaren lying to them? And the police cause people to commit crimes? And Ferrari was to blame for allowing themselved to be robbed?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I never said I was blaming the Stewards for McLaren lying, only people within McLaren can do that. There is no need for you to be a smart ass, I guess you are another typical Ferrari fan, because of your immediate jump at the oportunity to bring up Stepney-gate.

Seriously now mate, the Stewards have a wealth of resources to refur to when these type of situations arise, they are paid to do a job and that job involes investigating incidents and applying penalties accordingly. They should have already listened to the radio transmission recordings, and viewed all footage available to them before the 'sit-down' with Lewis even happened. They left themselves open to be misled, and on top of that, they based their penalty to Jarno on inconclusive evidence... and these are they guys that said Lewis gained an advantage by cutting the chicane at Spa-Francorchamps?

You mention Ferrari allowed themselves to be robbed, just remember, it was one of their own empoyees that robbed them. You seem to forget that F1 teams are not made up of engineers who are robots, programed to be 100% loyal and ethical, but instead engineers who are human, humans who want more money sometimes, who want better working conditions sometimes, who want a new boss because there current one is a bit of a cunt to them, who are willing to lie, and do un-ethical things to get these things. Ferrari are an F1 team, they know the classification of their information, data, all that stuff, the fact that their own employee leaked that information so easily and so much, would suggest to a reasonable man that they were not doing enough at that time to protect there information, from these type of threats.

Back on topic I read that a steward commented that the matter can be taken further with McLaren, seems a bit silly to me. Enough is enough, its gone as far as it needs to go, Hamilton has been DQ'd, McLaren made to look like assholes again, and the stewards have proven (yet again) that they can more or less do what ever they want, screw up as bad as they want, and get away with it because no one in the correct position to speak out against them has the balls to speak out against them.

vall
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Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 21:31

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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lkocev wrote:... and these are they guys that said Lewis gained an advantage by cutting the chicane at Spa-Francorchamps?
He did not cut the chicane to gain advantage, he did it because he could not take on Kimi and there were no gravel trap. Once he did that, he spotted the opportunity to overtake and he took it. He should have waited a few turns and then it would have been fine. FIA has discussed this with the drivers before each race, so LH had no excuse. But I guess this had been discussed a lot, no need to start again.
lkocev wrote:They should have already listened to the radio transmission recordings, and viewed all footage available to them before the 'sit-down' with Lewis even happened. They left themselves open to be misled, and on top of that, they based their penalty to Jarno on inconclusive evidence... and these are they guys that said Lewis gained an advantage by cutting the chicane at Spa-Francorchamps?
Perhaps they should have. But perhaps we can for once assume that at least some people trust what other people are saying and that they do not assume they are lying? They did not have footage and they questioned the involved parts to resolve the issue. Why would they assume that the drivers are lying? It has been done like that before and as far as I know nobody got caught lying.... Imaging the situation that they did first listen but decided to question LH anyway because for example there were to footage? LH would have lied again, wouldn't he? Alonso now claims that they did lie and played dirty tricks to him in Hungary 2007....
lkocev wrote:Enough is enough, its gone as far as it needs to go, Hamilton has been DQ'd, McLaren made to look like assholes again
They do not look like assholes, they are assholes. I had respect for this team, but after all that happened in 2007, I have no more.

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gcdugas
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Joined: 19 Sep 2006, 21:48

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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modbaraban wrote: @ gcdugas what are you trying to prove? It'd be hard to find a person out here that thinks Mosle should stay as the FIA president. But that's offtopic again.

I am trying to refocus our attention. We, the F1 fans of the world, have been diverted from the real issue. We have fallen for the ploy. We are endlessly debating, did he lie, didn't he.... etc. All that is completely moot. It is a gigantic smokescreen. The FIA is 100% responsible for the whole mess. Just stipulate that Ham lied... OK, so what. If the police asked a murderer... "did you do it?" and he says "no", is their investigation over? Have they discharged their duty? I think not. And what if after the police found out that they were lied to, they decided to penalized the murderer for lying and not for murdering. Senseless but that it what is happening to Ham and Mac.

Plainly put, the FIA stewards aren't fit to be employed as dog catchers.

Enough about being "economical with the truth" etc. What about the scandal of having the self proclaimed "pinnacle of motorsports" being administered by manifest incompetents?

So LH may have lied, does anyone here believe that Max hasn't ever lied? Lied in the performance of his duties? Come on. The whole "movable aero device" ruling was a blatant lie and a fraud. Does the FIA think we don't understand the English language? A mass damper is no more a movable aero device that the moon is made of blue cheese. And tire ovens in 2005 are "blankets".... Yeah, the FIA has never lied to us. And they are consummate professionals executing their duties faithfully and ably. Uggh.

Lets keep focused on the real issue and not let the FIA divert our eyes with their crafty little sleight-of-hand maneuvers.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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gcdugas wrote:Plainly put, the FIA stewards aren't fit to be employed as dog catchers.
That's true, if you treat teams and drivers as "dogs".
Yeah, they probably were too naive. Incompetent? Excuse me, but this is the first time in history they could've access to the radio of McLaren (and Ferrari if needed). probably you're right and they should treat drivers and teams as dogs. In that case McLaren should be banned from sports following spy scandal.

I also wonder why there were no such outrage of FIA bashing when Trulli was penalised in first place.

And all your "divert our eye" thing... Well, that would be a point only if there was no substance in the scandal. Face it LH not "may have lied", he and his team (for whatever reason) DID lied.

modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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Just read your own words again.
gcdugas wrote:I am trying to refocus our attention. We, the F1 fans of the world, have been diverted from the real issue. We have fallen for the ploy. We are endlessly debating, did he lie, didn't he.... etc. All that is completely moot. It is a gigantic smokescreen. The FIA is 100% responsible for the whole mess. Just stipulate that Ham lied... OK, so what.
That's not ok.

I'm not okay with the World Champion that acts like a schoolboy, that lied to the stewards when he told by the team (i.e. Martin & Co.) to do so. And then he lied again to his fans to scapegoat Ryan. That's not f***ing OK, man! We don't watch F1 for Prancing Arse Mosley, mr. E or the stewards. They simply provide the service as well or as badly as they do. And that's beyond the point, I don't care if the stewards could do a bit better when the real heroes are bloody rotten. Stewards can be replaced twice a day and nobody would care or notice, F1 World Champions can't.

donskar
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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modbaraban wrote:Just read your own words again.
gcdugas wrote:I am trying to refocus our attention. We, the F1 fans of the world, have been diverted from the real issue. We have fallen for the ploy. We are endlessly debating, did he lie, didn't he.... etc. All that is completely moot. It is a gigantic smokescreen. The FIA is 100% responsible for the whole mess. Just stipulate that Ham lied... OK, so what.
That's not ok.

I'm not okay with the World Champion that acts like a schoolboy, that lied to the stewards when he told by the team (i.e. Martin & Co.) to do so. And then he lied again to his fans to scapegoat Ryan. That's not f***ing OK, man! We don't watch F1 for Prancing Arse Mosley, mr. E or the stewards. They simply provide the service as well or as badly as they do. And that's beyond the point, I don't care if the stewards could do a bit better when the real heroes are bloody rotten. Stewards can be replaced twice a day and nobody would care or notice, F1 World Champions can't.
Well said. Hamilton is a great driver. McLaren is a great team. But they lied. And they got caught, so they have to pay the price. Their faithful fans should not abandon them, nor hate non-fans, merely note the facts, and accept that ALL of us are -- to a greater or lesser extent -- fallible. And THAT is the truth.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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Ray
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Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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lkocev wrote: the fact that their own employee leaked that information so easily and so much, would suggest to a reasonable man that they were not doing enough at that time to protect there information, from these type of threats.
:roll: Please. I guess people that are murdered in the middle of the night, robbed at gunpoint in broad daylight, get into a wreck because someone else wasn't paying attention to the road and hit them didn't do enough to protect themselves? Ever heard of the phrase 'sh!t happens'? You can't control every single element of life. If you think they didn't do enough to protect themselves from being robbed, you are a fool. They were robbed of information that was widely available. Stepney decided to steal it. You can't stop thieves, never have been and never will be able to. Only thing you can do is discourage it through enforcing stiff punishments and make them serve the punishment to the fullest extent.

On topic, Lewis lied. Got caught. End of story. He should be booted for lying, I hope this hammering of liars and cheats continues. Maximum punishment, every time. THAT'S how you stop this crap. Not appeals and loopholes. Make a rigid unwavering set of rules and punishments fro infractions, and enforce them!

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hulmerist
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Joined: 12 Feb 2009, 20:59

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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i'm getting a bit sick of people (not really on here) saying what an awful person lewis is what he's done is so bad

everyone is human, and everyone does things they regret, it doesn't matter if you're in his position and should know better, everyone should know better and not let themselves lie or do the wrong thing, but we do, everyone does, it's part of life

it's annoying to see people sticking the knife in, particularly alonso's comments, i was starting to have respect for him again then he starts bringing up what supposedly happened when he was at mclaren, perhaps someone should ask him about when he tried to blackmail his own team, perhaps someone should ask mosley, who is more than likely orchestrating all of this like the evil old man he is, why he cheated on his wife (which i think we'll all agree is so infinitely worse than someone trying to cheat in a sport)

why can this not be over now? you can see how bad hamilton felt, being what looked like on the point of tears in the press conference, and anyone must feel a little bit of compassion for him no matter what he's done now or in the past, anyone would think he'd just run over your dog and was confessing it to you

this is going to be hanging over the sport and is going to ruin what could've been the perfect start to the season for formula 1 as a whole

lewis has lost out already, the team should be fined a few million, then we should all move on and stop talking about it

vall
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Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 21:31

Re: Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

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hulmerist wrote:it's annoying to see people sticking the knife in, particularly alonso's comments, i was starting to have respect for him again then he starts bringing up what supposedly happened when he was at mclaren, perhaps someone should ask him about when he tried to blackmail his own team,

Don't take this out of the context. Consider what "his" team did to him the previous day, playing "dirty" trick to him, and quite possibly even before (remember that Alonlo's problems first came to light as early as Malaysian GP 2007). I am not saying this was the right thing to do. Perhaps, the moment he discovered that McLaren possessed Ferrari documents illegally, he should have reported to FIA? Remember that this team treated many of its drivers badly, which came to light after all 2007 scandals. So, this team has a record of bad attitude toward one driver and favoring the other.

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