Lewis third, Jarno given 25s penalty > Trulli 3rd, Lewis DSQ

[gcdugas]

well, it must be said that mclaren did not appeal the result...it was the stewards that decided to investigate, and hamilton and ryan were called in as part of that.
i think it would be a very good thing for mclaren if they had a new face at the top, maybe a mercedes man.
to be honest, if that dosnt happen, i can see mclaren ceasing to be involved in formula one ever again.

No matter what, McLaren will always be involved with F1. Without insulting you as a newbie, I can't understand how someone could ever say that. What were you thinking? Max will become an honest person before McLaren ever leaves F1... and we know that will never happen.

[DaveKillens]

At the 1997 European Grand Prix at Jerez, the last race of the season, Schumacher led another driver, this time Williams' Jacques Villeneuve, by one point in the Drivers' Championship. Although Schumacher and Villeneuve had set the same time during qualifying, the Canadian driver started the race in pole position due to his being the first to set the time. By the first corner of the race, Schumacher was ahead of Villeneuve. On lap 48, Villeneuve passed Schumacher at the Dry Sac Corner. As he did so, Schumacher turned into the Williams, the right-front wheel of Schumacher's Ferrari hitting the left side pod of Villeneuve's car. Schumacher retired from the race immediately while Villeneuve was able to finish the race in the third place, taking four points and so becoming the World Champion.
Two weeks after the race, Schumacher was excluded from the results for the season after a FIA disciplinary hearing disqualified him, finding that his "manoeuvre was an instinctive reaction and although deliberate not made with malice or premeditation. It was a serious error." This made him the only driver in the history of the sport, as of 2008 to be disqualified from a World Championship.

So in the past a driver has been excluded from the results of the season. His entire year was wiped out. And thus, it can easily happen again. When the FIA decides to drop the hammer, serious punishment can occur.
At the very least, I expect Whitmarsh to get nailed, and follow in the path of Dave Ryan. Possibly to probably Mercedes will divorce themselves from McLaren.

[shir0]

As I've said, quite recently, in fact, I was starting to like Lewis as a driver after his performance in Melbourne and, recently, in Sepang. I liked the way he executed his charging maneuvers cleanly and wihout a doubt, amost perfectly, each time.

That muddled thing at the end of the Melbourne race was the last thing I was expecting after an almost perfect race (since he didn't win, but worked his way up the field with a bit of luck on his side). I didn't knew then what really happened behind the scenes and so I shrugged it off. Now, it seems, that he had a bigger part with that stunt.

How hard was it to say, "YES. I had conciously let Trulli past." when he was asked about it? Saying that, he could've easily added: "At the time, it was all confusing as the team was trying to confirm with race control,what has happened and what we needed to do...".

But he didn't. And his defense (after the lie was brought to light) was that, in very subtle terms, he was told to do so by his team. And that he was a "team player".

If that was a scrap for, say, 10th place with no points to be gained...would Mclaren still had done the same? Would Lewis had done the same even if he was told by his team to tell a different story if it was to gain 10th position? There was something to gain. And they (at Mclaren) all probably thought, "hey, if we can get away with it, why not?".

Being a team player is one thing. Following orders blindly, with the knowledge that it is not the moral/honorable/right thing to do and still follow it...that I can't accept.

Everyone here defending Lewis has been brash branding Max Mosely and the FIA as NAZIs. I can't fault you with that and, at times, I even agree. But be sure to realize, though, that during the Nuremburg trials, the real NAZIs being tried at those courts tried the same thing to extricate themselves from being held accountable. "We were just following orders." Fortunately, for their victims, that defense didn't stick and the judges were not swayed by it one bit.

[jason.parker.86]

Ok guys - I have a theory. I wonder if the FIA did what they did with McLaren last time.

I wonder if they said to Lewis, come clean and we will exclude you from any punishment? Lets not forget if it wasnt for Lewis shouting his mouth off in the post race interviews they wouldnt be in this mess!

The media made Lewis, and now they will break him!!

[Callum]

Ok guys - I have a theory. I wonder if the FIA did what they did with McLaren last time.

I wonder if they said to Lewis, come clean and we will exclude you from any punishment? Lets not forget if it wasnt for Lewis shouting his mouth off in the post race interviews they wouldnt be in this mess!

The media made Lewis, and now they will break him!!

What do you mean, is this Alonsogate or Liegate??

[jason.parker.86]

Well to be fair he wasnt involved in the Alonso / Spygate - but certainly the Liegate.

Im sure it will all come out in the coming months!

[donskar]

McLaren hasn't paid for its "mistakes". When you lie, steal, cheat you're not making "mistakes" but you're behaving like a criminal.

McLaren was fortunate enough for not being expelled from the championship after stealing plans and specifications and paying (you have to assume some interest had the parties involved) for a spy acting inside a competitor.

Then they expelled the former World Champion after an embarrassing internal incident among their drivers: it was evident to me that expelling Alonso was Hamilton goal, I wasn't born yesterday.

Now I think FIA should punish Hamilton for "allowing himself" to be a "team player", that is, for knowingly lying to a refereee and colluding with other people to get an unfair penalty for Toyota. Where I live that's not called "team playing", that's called "lack of character".

I have to hear that he was witchhunted. People, if you're a witch, then a witchhunt is adequate!

Was he inocent? Look, who benefited from the "mistake" involving Trulli? Lewis Hamilton. Who benefited from Alonso expulsion? Lewis Hamilton. Who was the only one at McLaren (beside Ron Dennis... a thing that defies belief) who did not know they were using information from Ferrari? Yep. Lewis Hamilton. This guy lives in the clouds, if you believe to his fans. A robot has more responsibility...

Same thing can be said of the "Director-that-doesn't-direct", Ron Dennis: everybody and his dog, even tyre changers, knew what McLaren was doing. Everybody except Ron Dennis. Thank heavens he has no clue of what's going on in his team! Because if he knew, then he would be a fat liar, don't you agree?

To the people that feels sorry for Hamilton mistake, I only can say that there is a clear line dividing collaboration from complicity.

I'm really tired of a team cheating its way and being caught several times while many people still chant the "Ferrari is to blame" song. Oh, c'mon. Did Ferrari planted everything? Did they force McLaren to behave, for the last two years, like a house ran by the Mafia?

It's McLaren the ugly team nowadays and you all know it. FIA letter doesn't leave room for guesses: they continued to lie even when confronted with their own recordings. For the love of Pete, what's that? Not even my children do that. I have doubts: I don't know if to call it stupidity or crime. I guess I have to settle for both.

+1. Superb post.

Hamilton is WDC, rich, his future secure. Surely he can afford to tell the truth, regardless of what his team tells him? And before you ask, YES I have told the truth, knowing it would cost me my job -- twice. It's not really so hard. And I am many galaxies away from being champion of anything.

[donskar]

McLaren hasn't paid for its "mistakes". When you lie, steal, cheat you're not making "mistakes" but you're behaving like a criminal.

McLaren was fortunate enough for not being expelled from the championship after stealing plans and specifications and paying (you have to assume some interest had the parties involved) for a spy acting inside a competitor.

Then they expelled the former World Champion after an embarrassing internal incident among their drivers: it was evident to me that expelling Alonso was Hamilton goal, I wasn't born yesterday.

Now I think FIA should punish Hamilton for "allowing himself" to be a "team player", that is, for knowingly lying to a refereee and colluding with other people to get an unfair penalty for Toyota. Where I live that's not called "team playing", that's called "lack of character".

I have to hear that he was witchhunted. People, if you're a witch, then a witchhunt is adequate!

Was he inocent? Look, who benefited from the "mistake" involving Trulli? Lewis Hamilton. Who benefited from Alonso expulsion? Lewis Hamilton. Who was the only one at McLaren (beside Ron Dennis... a thing that defies belief) who did not know they were using information from Ferrari? Yep. Lewis Hamilton. This guy lives in the clouds, if you believe to his fans. A robot has more responsibility...

Same thing can be said of the "Director-that-doesn't-direct", Ron Dennis: everybody and his dog, even tyre changers, knew what McLaren was doing. Everybody except Ron Dennis. Thank heavens he has no clue of what's going on in his team! Because if he knew, then he would be a fat liar, don't you agree?

To the people that feels sorry for Hamilton mistake, I only can say that there is a clear line dividing collaboration from complicity.

I'm really tired of a team cheating its way and being caught several times while many people still chant the "Ferrari is to blame" song. Oh, c'mon. Did Ferrari planted everything? Did they force McLaren to behave, for the last two years, like a house ran by the Mafia?

It's McLaren the ugly team nowadays and you all know it. FIA letter doesn't leave room for guesses: they continued to lie even when confronted with their own recordings. For the love of Pete, what's that? Not even my children do that. I have doubts: I don't know if to call it stupidity or crime. I guess I have to settle for both.

+1. Superb post.

Hamilton is WDC, rich, his future secure. Surely he can afford to tell the truth, regardless of what his team tells him? And before you ask, YES I have told the truth, knowing it would cost me my job -- twice. It's not really so hard. And I am many galaxies away from being champion of anything.

[PlatinumZealot]

Some of you guys don't understand something called Peer pressure.

If i was Lewis Hamilton i would just do what my superiors told me to do.If am i discovered.. all i would say is "X or Y" told me to do it and i followed their instructions.. SIMPLE!

What is so hard to understand? Sure you can be a goody two shoes and resist... BUT!!! Who is Lewis to Resist ORDERS?! It is like biting the hand that feeds you!

[nudger]

well, it must be said that mclaren did not appeal the result...it was the stewards that decided to investigate, and hamilton and ryan were called in as part of that.
i think it would be a very good thing for mclaren if they had a new face at the top, maybe a mercedes man.
to be honest, if that dosnt happen, i can see mclaren ceasing to be involved in formula one ever again.

No matter what, McLaren will always be involved with F1. Without insulting you as a newbie, I can't understand how someone could ever say that. What were you thinking? Max will become an honest person before McLaren ever leaves F1... and we know that will never happen.

oh save me from the newbie stuff...judge me by what i write rather than how long i have posted here ok.
how i can say it is very easy, mclaren are not in a position with either sponsors or mercedes to survive a long race ban, or being thrown out for the season.
The world council will do whatever mosley tells them to do, and mosley wants dennis out of the picture, and possibly whitmarsh removed. That is my assesment of what is going on behind the scenes ..although i do acknowledge i may be misreading the situation, it is my honest point of view.
If the decision is one that prevents mclaren from racing for the remainder of the season (that could very easily happen, you do know that dont you?) then the whole mclaren group, including electronics and automotive could, and in my opinion probably would, go out of business

[ringo]

the rules state:

40.7
Overtaking will be permitted under the following circumstances :
- if a car is signalled to do so from the safety car ;
- under 40.15 below ;
- any car entering the pits may pass another car or the safety car remaining on the track after it has
crossed the first safety car line ;
- any car leaving the pits may be overtaken by another car on the track before it crosses the second
safety car line ;
- when the safety car is returning to the pits it may be overtaken by cars on the track once it has
crossed the first safety car line ;
- any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the safety car is using the pit lane (see 40.10
below) may be overtaken ;
- if any car slows with an obvious problem.

It seems there is no explicit provision for someone going off the track! but maybe the part in bold covers it...you could say a car going off the track has an obvious problem, therefore ok to overtake..covers trullis pass on hamilton though as he thought hamilton slowed due to a mechanical problem.

This is very subjective (what you have in bold); also saying "he thought" may not help his situation. I still feel truli shouldn't be off the hook. A mechanical problem is not obvious until a car comes to a stop or shows signs of damage. The mclaren had no signs and it didn't leave the circuit.Ironically, Vettel obviously had mechanical problems, he was not passed for a while.So all teams are a bit cloudy of the rules.
By these regulations i don't see where LH "consciously" letting truli pass makes truli legitimate.There is no provision for driver courtesy behind the SC from what you have above.
So therefore I believe truli should also be penalized for an illegal pass.

I am not a lawyer but this is what i gather.

I think you all misunderstood what i wrote; after reading the replies. I am not questioning Lewis' pass on Truli who came off the circuit. That pass was clearly legal. He was not wrong to pass him.
What i am questioning is the legality to pass another car that is on the ciruit when the safety car is out, even when one is being obliged to pass by the said car. This legality should not depend on the drivers consciousness to give up his position. Hamilton's gift to truli should be redundant if we consider the regulations word by word.
Understand what i am saying guys?
Even if LH let him pass, the rule is against passing another car that is on the circuit that has no obvious mechanical problems.
Here is a situation; lets say for arguments sake both of them were on the same team and It was the the last 3 laps of the last race in the championship and the SC is out. Lets say lewis has no chance of being champion but truli needs 2 more points. Is it fair to the other teams that Lewis would just wave him on by to get him the points, when there is nothing that they can do about it, being behind the SC?
This permission to pass by driver is clearly a problem, so this is why i say Truli needs to be investigated the same way as LH. Was his team considering the rules when he drove past lH. Were they were caught with their pants down and made a scramble to regain 3rd when no one was looking?
Lets forget about truli being passed, this is what i wanted to address.

[gcdugas]

oh save me from the newbie stuff...judge me by what i write rather than how long i have posted here ok.
how i can say it is very easy, mclaren are not in a position with either sponsors or mercedes to survive a long race ban, or being thrown out for the season.
The world council will do whatever mosley tells them to do, and mosley wants dennis out of the picture, and possibly whitmarsh removed. That is my assesment of what is going on behind the scenes ..although i do acknowledge i may be misreading the situation, it is my honest point of view.
If the decision is one that prevents mclaren from racing for the remainder of the season (that could very easily happen, you do know that dont you?) then the whole mclaren group, including electronics and automotive could, and in my opinion probably would, go out of business

Well at least you admit that this is 100% about a personal vendetta by Mosley and it has nothing to do with justice, proportion, past FIA dealings with other teams, or even the truthfulness of the FIA itself.

I don't even see McLaren getting any race bans but what do I know. Should this whole matter turn ugly I foresee a backlash against Mosley. The public won't come to the aid of liars, but I don't think they will sit quietly if a liar is brought before the firing squad.

Mac can wage a PR war through minions and surrogates. Look for more stories about the FIA lying. More stories like this one and this one. And McLaren just might have some dirt on Mosley when he has publicly lied that could surface in a timely manner.

Let's also remember that M-B could lean on Ross Brawn and he knows where the bodies are buried. He could spill the beans on bribes, payoffs, FIA corruption all stemming from the famously stolen 2003 WDC title with the "Michelingate" tire ruling after Hungary and before Monza in 2003.

Personally I think Mac will approach Max in the very short term with enough dirt to dissuade him from executing his full rabid passion. "Max, you remember that 2 million Euro deposit into your Swiss account, you remember this recording...." Are you really sure you want to do this?

[Ciro Pabón]

Good, excellent point, Mikhak. But then shouldn't Hamilton had given that explanation, including somehow the radio instructions? If he did so, he cannot be punished. Otherwise, well, I don't know. I also don't know if the ramifications can be so severe as WB "paints it".

[nudger]

Well at least you admit that this is 100% about a personal vendetta by Mosley and it has nothing to do with justice, proportion, past FIA dealings with other teams, or even the truthfulness of the FIA itself.

.

i never said that.
i dont think it is 100% vendetta. The fia are entittled to bring mclaren infront of them ... having said that, the mistrust between the fia and certain people within mclaren is largely responcible for the situation. thats not justifying anyones actions, its just the way things are. But yes, i do think max will want to kick them harder for being mclaren. I dont think he realises that he is being vengeful...but then i dont think he realises that he is a psychologists wet dream

[shir0]

Some of you guys don't understand something called Peer pressure.

Are we talking about pre-pubescent kid being "pressured" to tell a lie about smoking hashish here or a 23 year old Formula 1 WDC?

Who is Lewis to Resist ORDERS?!

Sometimes, I wonder if Lewis' fans are really holding him in such high regard or belittling him like a school boy who's always being picked on by a cruel bully.

The same people who praise him for making lightning quick decisions everytime he's making an overtaking move for it's supreme flawlessnes (even if the entire grid of drivers disagree with them) are now saying he can't make the right decision just because he has no choice.

Utter crap.