Best Driver on the Brakes

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ESPImperium
ESPImperium
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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Best under brakes for me:

Massa - Just look at Hungary last year, he outbroke 2 McLarens straight out, albeit with a ton of smoke.
Kubica - Look at Fuji last year, holding Kimi off with badly graining tyres.
Vettel - Not as agressive as the top 2, but he uses this with outstanding throttle control.
Alonso - Look at Fuji 08, kept Kubica honest, then used what the tyres had left to out pace him in the second stint. Also amazing start, albeit Hamilton f-ed up the start, with Massa.

Hamilton, as he lokcs up too much for me, doesnt get a look in, the odd lock up is fine, but the same place or places every lap, no wonder he has diffrent strategys for some tracks (Istanbul Park) and no wonder he has had tyre failures at Hungary as well. No to mention Lewis Corner at China, the one on the way to the pits.

blobslosak
blobslosak
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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If we're talking about examples of superb braking then Hamilton out braking Raikkonen from MILES back at Monza in 07.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE8Y34tN21k

That was superb. Lock ups or no lock ups, no one brakes as well as Hamilton.

roost89
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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No-one yet has mentioned Webber. For sheer braking force, he seems to have the absolute power advantage when stomping on the pedals. I've heard Martin Brundle mention this many times on the Television.
So far that, he'd be the best.

Otherwise, I'm not sure, who-ever is that last of the late breakers I suppose.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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People are so in denial..

HAMILTON is the best at Braking!

The Braking connoisseur!

He makes mistakes sometimes because he is always on the very limits! But he is still the best driver to watch, the camera loves him, always exciting.
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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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roost89 wrote:No-one yet has mentioned Webber. For sheer braking force, he seems to have the absolute power advantage when stomping on the pedals. I've heard Martin Brundle mention this many times on the Television.
So far that, he'd be the best.

Otherwise, I'm not sure, who-ever is that last of the late breakers I suppose.
I'm sure they all have left feet strong enough to lock up the brakes and flat spot the the tires... the key is to be on the limit throughout the braking zone without over doing it.

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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Shumacher is no longer racing but he was the best. Hamilton reminds me of his braking style.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EReiD_d7 ... L&index=19[/youtube]
For Sure!!

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Ray
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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blobslosak wrote:If we're talking about examples of superb braking then Hamilton out braking Raikkonen from MILES back at Monza in 07.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE8Y34tN21k

That was superb. Lock ups or no lock ups, no one brakes as well as Hamilton.
Miles back? Hardly. More like a car length to a car and a half. Once he got up the inside he moved over on Kimi because he'd have hopped the kerbs if he didn't, causing him to lockup in the process. Kimi locked up as well though, due to Lewis forcing him over a bit and not allowing him to turn in when he wanted. Which is exactly how you are supposed to do it! He's good, but not god-like as you and N Smikle think.

I always thought that Lewis was exceptional, but Alonso's agressive braking coupled with his vicious turn in in the Renault 2005-2006 was amazing to watch.

Skunk0001
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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Really depends if the question relates to single laptimes, long runs, or overtaking.

For speed I'd go for Kubica, almost got pole in Melbourne last year (4th this year), got pole in Bahrain 2008, did great in Montreal (fortunate win) and 3rd in Monza 2008. And remember that was in a BMW.

For overtaking I'd go for Hamilton, although sometimes hes a bit of madman.

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Shaddock
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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I think Lewis and Kimi have the same style on the brakes. They apply gentle, then firm pressure, then begin the turn in at the same time reducing brake pressure until the apex. Lewis may just try to carry more speed into the apex, and gets the occassional lockup of the inside wheel and needs to slow the car down more before the apex.

Both Kimi and Lewis drive in straight lines, ie, later on the brakes, different apex (corner shape) slightly lower minimum corner speeds, to the likes of Button, but they get on the power earlier, reduce lateral load, and don't allow the corners to go on too long.

Alonso jumps on his brakes very hard, and had trouble with rear end stability at McLaren with their Carbone brakes which grabbed and didn't smooth this action as his former Hitco's did.

timbo
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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Shaddock wrote:I think Lewis and Kimi have the same style on the brakes. They apply gentle, then firm pressure, then begin the turn in at the same time reducing brake pressure until the apex. Lewis may just try to carry more speed into the apex, and gets the occassional lockup of the inside wheel and needs to slow the car down more before the apex.

Both Kimi and Lewis drive in straight lines, ie, later on the brakes, different apex (corner shape) slightly lower minimum corner speeds, to the likes of Button, but they get on the power earlier, reduce lateral load, and don't allow the corners to go on too long.

Alonso jumps on his brakes very hard, and had trouble with rear end stability at McLaren with their Carbone brakes which grabbed and didn't smooth this action as his former Hitco's did.
I think otherwise. In 2008 French GP I watched how drivers entered first corner. The camera was placed so they would brake on the straight line exactly to the camera. Both Kimi and Alonso had this very decisive and sharp turn in, while Hamilton and Massa turned in gradually. Now they don't brake much into the corner but anyway, that what I saw.

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Ciro Pabรณn
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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I've been biting my tongue up to this moment... :wink:

I find a little naive to try to compare braking abilities of drivers. Everything depends on downforce. I'll use this graph (thanks to Reca, made with Bosch LapSim) that shows the lap times for different levels of downforce. There are two curves (for the same car with different engine power):

Image

As you can see, lap times depend on downforce until you reach a minimum lap time. What you see is that once you go over that point, your time increases: you're generating too much drag, the price to pay for downforce. However, it gives you an idea of how dependant is the lap time on the downforce the car generates.

Braking "length" depends primarily on the downforce you have at your disposition during the braking zone.

So, it's no wonder that some drivers seem to have superhuman abilities: they simply have more braking force available, because the car provides them with more downforce.

If you really wish to claim that XXX is better than YYY for braking, I would suggest to go and try to find their braking results in a kart, DTM or similar, not in an F1. However, I find that approach very boring: I dislike the "I love Fangio" threads, but that's me (evidently).

AFAIK, most drivers stomp on the brakes with all their might, and, altough the "brake modulation" exists, I wonder which one gives you better results at the end of the lap.

Many people, used to employ "assisted" brakes, wouldn't belive how hard are the brakes of an open wheeler (if I have to trust my very limited experience). I once drove an all-drum-brakes car for some years and when it rained you had time to pray a whole "Hail Mary" while the car stopped: it's the same sensation.

Same goes for the throttle: only at tight curves is the throttle handling really important, and only when you need to avoid oversteering on the exit (which depends on the shape of the exit curve).

I cannot find the previous threads on this issue where actual curves for throttle and brake actuation were shown. Sigh. I hope somebody has the time: they exist and are very instructive. I repeat, give me numbers instead of opinions. Opinions are like navels, everybody has one. Here you have two graphs I got (really old) for Schumi vs Rubens telemetry:

Image

Notice that Schumi brakes later than Rubens, but then he's slower on the exit. So much for braking ability: you have to test every particular curve to find if you're doing it well. That's what attracts me more to racing: it is possible to find the mathematically perfect curve trajectory for one curve. It is not possible (up to this date) to do the same for two curves. Racing is an art and one where you can appreciate the style of any driver, as the resurgence of some drivers this year proves amply.

However, I would love to analyze the sound of engines to find the deceleration-acceleration graph for curve 1 at Shanghai, some curves at Turkey or at Repsol (in Catalunya), curves shaped in such a way that the braking and throttle handling is really important. That, or get the telemetry, whichever is easier. Be my guest, but in the end you have no idea if a driver is better than the rest or if his car simply has more downforce at low speeds. You could compare that telemetry with trap speeds to try to reach a conclusion.

Well, you know what to do. Now, it's only a matter of doing it. As Ludwig Wittgestein said: "Of what one cannot speak, one must pass over in silence".
Ciro

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lkocev
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Joined: 25 Jan 2009, 08:34

Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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I think this is a really hard question, and I think maybe there are a few different definitions of what 'best on the brakes' means. I think it really depends alot on what exactly the driver is tying to do, or what driving ideas they follow. I think really that all the drivers would be pretty much on the brink of falling off the edge in terms of performance potential they get from there brakes.

Like I said, it would depend greatly on exactly what the driver is trying to do with the car; he might be trying to achive a more V shaped brake-throttle application graph through a corner, or a more U shaped graph.

I would say that a V shaped approach would be braking hard even on turn-in, progressivley decreasing brake pedal pressure before hitting the apex, then almost immediatley after progressivley increasing throttle pedal pressure, perhaps that would be like trail-braking. The other U shaped approach I would think would be more like trying to slow the car down as best it can in a straight line only, quickly reducing brake pressure on turn-in, holding a gentle constant throttle pressure to hold a more constant speed heading toward the apex and just after hitting apex, then getting the throttle down as quickly and sharply as possible to carry highest possible speed out of the turn.

I guess it depends too on where exactly on a circuit you are using these approaches. I would assume super late braking into a slow hairpin that leads on to a long straight wouldn't be as good at you might think. It could cause you to position your car poorly going into the turn, and then you cant get on the throttle soon enough out of the turn which leads on to a long straight. In a situation like that I would think it would be a bit better to get the car slowed off more in a straight line and position the car on turn in so that you can get the throttle down earlier on exit, which would get you down the long straight quicker. Perhaps the other technique would work better when trying to pull off an ofertaking more into a turn that shortly followed by a series of other turns of moderate speed with gentle braking if no braking before them.

I don't think best on brakes should be defined simply by who hits them the latest. You have to really look at the bigger picture, and what effects certain braking techniques will have on how you can get back on the throttle, or how much speed you can carry through the apex, and not just into it. Some times the guy you are out braking gets a better run onto the next corner than you because he positioned his car better on entry and got on the throttle sooner on exit. Of course, some times cars just work better by throwing them as agressivley into turns as possible with trail braking (Alonso in the R25 and R26 comes to mind, Hamilton too).

I always thaught Mika Hakkinen was te best at that sort of stuff, I was a big fan of him. Of the current drivers, I think it would probably be even stevens between them, perhaps Alonso and Hamilton are the top dogs at pulling off out-braking overtaking moves. But as for driving in clear path, I'm pretty sure all drivers would be getting pretty much the maximum from there brakes.

marinopc
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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When you say that Hamilton is the best driver braking, you have to remember the problems that had Bridgestone engineers for his fault. Hamilton has broken a lot of tyres and got a lot ot extra graining and puncture problems for his blocking mania. Remember the 2007 Turkish GP, 2008 Monaco, 2008 Hungary... Anyone else has these problems!

I think the best brakers right now are Barrichello, Trulli and Webber. And on the other side Kimi, Massa and Nakajima.

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Shaddock
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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timbo wrote:
Shaddock wrote:I think Lewis and Kimi have the same style on the brakes. They apply gentle, then firm pressure, then begin the turn in at the same time reducing brake pressure until the apex. Lewis may just try to carry more speed into the apex, and gets the occassional lockup of the inside wheel and needs to slow the car down more before the apex.

Both Kimi and Lewis drive in straight lines, ie, later on the brakes, different apex (corner shape) slightly lower minimum corner speeds, to the likes of Button, but they get on the power earlier, reduce lateral load, and don't allow the corners to go on too long.

Alonso jumps on his brakes very hard, and had trouble with rear end stability at McLaren with their Carbone brakes which grabbed and didn't smooth this action as his former Hitco's did.
I think otherwise. In 2008 French GP I watched how drivers entered first corner. The camera was placed so they would brake on the straight line exactly to the camera. Both Kimi and Alonso had this very decisive and sharp turn in, while Hamilton and Massa turned in gradually. Now they don't brake much into the corner but anyway, that what I saw.
I'm going to disagree, one corner doesn't tell you enough about a drivers style and you would need to compare lines and braking points over a variety of corners.

I think engine braking also flattered some drivers ability to brake for a corner and in the case of Kubica in the BMW just the opposite. His style of changing down at higher revs than Heidfeld didn't agree with the ECU engine braking mapping and led to in stability at the back end.

Unless you put the drivers in the same car on the same day it a difficult one the answer. Different aero, different pad/brake manufacturers, fuel loads etc.

If Max gets his way we'll know for definite by 2012. :?

SoliRossi
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Re: Best Driver on the Brakes

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As was mentioned just earlier on this page Webber would have to be up there.

My knowledge is limited and of course with out data its hard to demonstrated but here goes.

Its widley accepted that Webber generates the greatest brake force of any driver. He generates up to 150 bar consistently every lap, now when you conisder most drivers generate 60-80 bar on average it starts to seem impressive. The amount of force Mark uses is akin to that which drivers only ever come near when they are about to go in. Case in point....Haug once commented that the greatest brake force he had ever seen was when Prost was about to have a big off he reached 140 bar!

Combine this with how many times you see Webber lock a wheel. Can anyone actually remember ever seing Mark lock a singel wheel in corner entry?

Another massive ability Mark has with braking is the feel for the tyre, a point which he has admited he has found harder to master with the slicks. Knowing how much stick you will get before you lock up.

But someone who generates the most force on the pedal and basically never locks up has to be in the running.