2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[WhiteBlue]

Ian Phillips told BBC Five Live that "we submitted a joint entry last Friday, and there's nothing more to say".

I do not read a denial out of this. As it stands I believe in AMuS's Michael Schmidt to be right on this issue. They have some excellent sources at the FIA and the manufacturers likewise.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/20 ... 9827_x.htm

FOTA also said Force India would likely be suspended alongside Williams after the Indian team broke ranks to lodge its 2010 entry.

This also seems to contradict mcdenife's view.

[mcdenife]

Not supprising when you just quote the end of the long answer he gave. You may not have 'read' a denial, but I categorically heard (yes I was listening). I dont know who or what Amus is but why should I believe it or whoever but not Fi's commercial director who was asked live on air and gave a categorical denial (also live on air)?

[Ciro Pabón]

The only prediction I will make is you will change hands - and Mosley whilst wealthy through his family also took a reported $300 million 'donation' from Ecclestone back in 2000 for his help with the rights of F1 going across to Ecclestrone who on sold them for a couple of billion to CVC - believe it or not so go seek that one out my friend.

Chap, do you have any links to those reports? Even if they are written by Rubython, I'm interested and my googling only yield some backmarker sites. I've never read anything like that, but if you say so, you know I believe you. Nobody around this site is more familiar with F1 history, that I know...

What I find enlightening about Mosley and Ecclestone character (which I found trying to follow your googling recommendation) is the Examination of Witnesses, Mr. B Ecclestone and Mr. M Mosley, by the UK parliament on the issue of tobacco advertising.

For young people here, it gives you an idea about how they work together, Mosley and Ecclestone.

I find incredible how they denied any relationship to some companies. In the end, they attached a letter, saying they were sorry (outside the view of reporters), that they were mistaken and that they did know those firms.

As they say, Mosley and Ecclestone don't sew without a thimble... even if in the end they lost that particular case (altough Marlboro is still a sponsor, for the love of Pete!).

I don't know if Domenicali is at the same moral height (which I think is pretty low... ), so there is a big question about the solution we'll finally have to the issue at hand.

What we should be interested in is not in the "public outcome" of this case, but in the fine print of the final agreement. There is no b&w picture in this kind of deals, as mcdenife suggests.

What is Amus, you guys?

[WhiteBlue]

Ciro, the story is in Rubython's first edition of his new rag SportsPro, that went online for free. It reads very convincing but you have to take it with a pinch of salt, coming from Rubython. The guy must have a very vivid imagination or be pretty loose in terms of journalistic standards. The story was published 14 months ago I believe. He obviously covered himself by calling it a rumor so he could not be sued over it. Chaparral reports it here as a fact, which is inaccurate. I will give you a source when I find it again.

Edit:

It is believed he received a gratis payment from Bernie Ecclestone of US$300 million as a token of his appreciation.

http://www.germancarzone.com/290857-post104.html

found a reprint for your convenience

Auto Motor und Sport is a German magazine which covers F1 closely and broke the story of FIF1 making a separate application.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 25207.html

Michael Schmidt is a full time journo covering F1 for AMuS for many years. You often get questions from him in FIA press confernces.

[WhiteBlue]

Not supprising when you just quote the end of the long answer he gave. You may not have 'read' a denial, but I categorically heard (yes I was listening). I dont know who or what Amus is but why should I believe it or whoever but not Fi's commercial director who was asked live on air and gave a categorical denial (also live on air)?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21549.html

GP.com isn't exactly known as Mosley fanboys.

[mcdenife]

GP.com isn't exactly known as Mosley fanboys.

Your point being? It does not change the fact the guy denied it live on air

[WhiteBlue]

Point taken. I just want to find the facts. As it looks now the report on AMuS was correct.

[Agerasia]

Hi,
an interesting read from 1991 about budgets.
Link

[WhiteBlue]

Excellent link I must say. It puts into perspective how the automotive money perverted the sport. Many people thought the commercialization by cigarette companies was bad. It wasn't even close to what the wheeler dealers unleashed onto F1. Perhaps there is a chance now to go back to 1992 levels of expenditure and find some way to stop the hemoraging of talent that has been dominated by money in the last 15 years.

[Fil]

Interesting to note that in the latest press conference in Turkey, the FOTA reps never mentioned BMW nor McLaren in their discussions with the media.

[WhiteBlue]

The Fota teams are probably spending some 200 mil € each year on hospitality of which probably 50% is consumed by hacks who feed their philosophy to the fans. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what most journos will tell their readers and listeners about the conflict between FOTA and FOM.

[bhall]

€200,000,000 each on hospitality? Where does that figure come from?

(I highly doubt the accuracy of that estimate.)

This isn't about a budget cap, folks. This is about who ultimately controls F1.

[WhiteBlue]

No bhallg2k I was talking about all of them together. But give me your estimate and we try to find a figure we can agree to. The main message isn't really the figure itself. The point I'm trying to make is that teams are spending a lot of money to make their opinions known. So it comes as no big surprise that they get a lot of air time for their side of the conflict.

[donskar]

A poster in another F1 forum claims this is from Auto Motor Und Sport. I have no position on its veracity:

Title: Manufacturers guard against further defections.

First Williams dropped out, now Force India has entered without conditions. To reduce the chance of forther errosion, the 5 manufacturers have signed a pact to stick together.

FOTA is still defending itself in a strong position. The defection of Williams and FI may have hurt the cause and this has not helped ease the tension in the effort to introduce new governance to the sport, but the big teams have now sworn to be true to each other.

The trust in such an arrangement was always in question. It has now been leaked that the 5 manufacturers have entered into a seperate pact. It's reported that each manufacturer that leaves FOTA must pay the remaining members 50 Mil Euro. The agreement is temporary. [A later translation claims this means 50 Mil Euro to each of the other 4]

The desire for such an arrangement was introduced by BMW. Aparently Theissen could only get his Board of Directors to agree to FOTA's hard line position if all the other manufacturers remain in the same boat. English lawyers have warned that such an arrangement may not be legal.

And the FIA has also raised the stakes, by warning that a break-away series would be insanity. Although the FIA would give such a series it's blessing, but it would be unrealistic to assume that such a series would be allowed to compete with Formula 1.

The FIA explained that Ferrari has a contract with FOM and the FIA to enter only with FIA F1, and nowhere else, until 2012. Without Ferrari, the other rebels have no chance. Maranello insists that this agreement has been broken by the FIA, thus invalid. Only 2 weeks ago the French court however disagreed and has ruded the contract valid. Only the application of the veto right was improper.

On pit row there is a fear that the involved parties have emotionally alienated themselves to the extent that a solution may not be possible, althoughall parties are in relative agreement on the basics. Norbert Haug has asked for some sanity. "Surely we have enough people in our industry that are interested in a solution."

Relative to cost saving, Haug claims the manufacturers have achieved a lot. In 2008, an engine program cost 15 mil Euro and in 2010 it will be 5 mil Euro. For a team like Force India, this is a saving of over 50mil Euro over the life of our contract. It must be possible to achieve such savings in other areas.

[WhiteBlue]

I can find no such article on Auto Motor und Sport. I will check other German publications like Auto Bild.

Some similarities here:

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel-1 ... 17145.html
http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 60603.html

I cannot find a reference to the reported BMW position. It appears that all this talk is done by Howett.

Michael Schmidt of AMuS (most respected German motorsport writer) opines in his Blog that we have an ego problem by Montezemolo and Mosley. This he thinks was launched when Montezemolo gave public advise to the FIA how to handle the DDD issue. He thinks the other manufacturers and the FIA can easily agree on the substance of resource capping, but the way this has been handled publicly by Ferrari has enraged Mosley. He predicts Mosley will admit at least four new teams to challenge Montezemolo and force FOTA to climb down from their public confrontation.

I tend to agree with that view. It is well known that both BMW and Mercedes do not want a war with the FIA. Everybody knows that one can deal with Mosley particularly behind closed doors. But if he is publicly challenged he will always fight it out. It is his way of operating, which he will never change. The most humiliating experience of giving witness in his case last year did not stop him to take NotW publicly on and defeat them in court. I do not understand why Montezemolo is taking this strategy and why the other FOITA members do not force him into moderation.

A character like Mosley will quietly compromise and get on with the business unless he is provoked. What is Montezemolo's end game here? Is he preparing the battle field for a FOTA candidate at the next FIA elections? If the strategy is to damage Mosley and provoke him to show himself in constant conflict he is certainly doing a good job. But will he achieve that without doing huge damage to F1? I have my doubts.