F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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andartop
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Agreed. But he wouldn't have blood in his hands!
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

Scotracer
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Jersey Tom wrote:Barber Motorsport Park has some wicked elevation and camber changes as well, and some tricky blind sections.
Yeah, that's a nice track (I've raced it on iRacing).
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Scotracer wrote:
Jersey Tom wrote:Barber Motorsport Park has some wicked elevation and camber changes as well, and some tricky blind sections.
Yeah, that's a nice track (I've raced it on iRacing).
One of my favorites in rFactor =D>

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Ciro Pabón
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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I would love to write something substantial in this thread, but frankly I don't have the time until July... :(

However, some quick notes:

First, tracks are the root of all joy to me. 8)

I don't see how you can blame Tilke. He had introduced new tools for road design into my world... I wait until more road designers are accostumed to them before I start critizicing his designs.

What I complain of is that tracks are underdeveloped. A few chicanes are the only investment on many old tracks, while cars have underwent major changes during the last decades.

For example, people complains freely about Canada being out of the calendar. Tell me, people, when did they change the track to reflect the changes in cars? Cars change every week. For the love of Pete, at Canada they were repaving three days before the GP a few years ago, and then only because drivers complained of the asphalt disintegrating under their feet!

Where is the constant flow of money toward track design? Where is the money for research? Tracks have to survive based ONLY on the tickets and most GP are money losers, aren't they? Now, you tell me that Tilke, a guy investing in new technology on his own, can survive without FOM subsidizing him... let me smile.

As I see it, most people nag him but they are like persons complaining about 80's F1 car designs without understanding what ground effect is.

Frankly, nobody I know has the time or the patience to learn what an envolvent of trajectories is, and they prefer to desing based on old rules devised during the 1950's. It's the XXIth century!

I try to say that to my colleagues, but they don't want to invest extra time and extra effort and extra money into something nobody notices. Altough some of them agree with me that good designs in road engineering are not noticed: that's what makes them good.

You should read track regulations to understand Tilke's predicaments, or, just by the fun of it, spend the time designing a track under the rules.

Most of the tracks I see in simulator games are horrible, impractical, just lines drawn on a paper, attending only to the experience of the driver. The same way you could design a flat track on Pike's Peak.

At least, why don't you check track regulations? It can explain to some why the tracks are similar. We have had some threads about them.

Nobody complains about all F1 cars being the same profile, with minute differences. Why are they similar? Because of regulations, duh.

It's the same for tracks, altough Max Mosley, thanks heaven, hasn't taken track regulations and changed them every year: that, I concede.

However, track rules underwent serious changes in the 1990's. Nobody I know said a word, while most analyze to boredom the minimal changes in diffusers, down to the centimeter.

Does anybody here know what are the minimum and maximum length of straights, before pontificating about them?

Now, Tilke works with local contractors. At least, I know the guy in Turkey. What do you think designers do? Move the cranes and the bulldozers from Germany to China and back? How can you build anything at the other side of the world if you don't work with locals?

Now, show me a dozen architechts or civil engineers that race in this world and I'll show you Tilke's competitors. There are three or four firms that I know specialized in track design. Wilsons and Tilke's are the outstanding ones.

It's harder to design a flat road than a hilly one. It's easier to cook a dish with many species, it's much harder to cook something with subtle taste.

The friends of xpensive were doing what a good driver does. Actually, I do not walk tracks, I ride them in a bike, the only way to find if you have a 2% slope. You won't notice that by walking.

It's also hard to modify a current flat track and convert it into a bumpy one, you have serious restrictions about the length of vertical curves: you HAVE to provide visibiliy. I wouldn't like to be an unconscious driver in a car in a track with blind spots.

I won't mention drainage nor transitions in sideslopes, it would be boring for many.

Well, I have to go. If this I write without having the time, in one step, imagine if I had more... :roll: Armchair engineers... hrumph...
Ciro

Scotracer
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Checking the circuit regulations:
  • The maximum permitted length for straight sections of track is 2km.
  • It is recommended that the length of any new circuit should not exceed 7 km.
  • When planning new permanent circuits, the track width foreseen should be at least 12 m. Where the track width changes, the transition should be made as gradually as possible, at a rate not greater than 1 m in 20 m total width.
  • Maximum Vertical radius R = V²/K (R = Radius, V = Velocity (Km/h) & K = Constant (20 for positive, 15 for negative)
  • In curves, the banking (downwards from the outside to the inside of the track) should not exceed 10 %
  • There should preferably be at least 250 m between the starting line and the fi rst corner.
Those are the main ones that outline the plan of the circuit. One could quite conceivably design an old-school circuit (a Spa, Mugello, Monza, Silverstone) with those regulations. So, the fact they are similar raises more question over the use of Tilke for almost all the new designs. I feel personally the responsibility should be rotated as with those I've outline you could come up with some very nice designs.

In fact, I'm gonna go try one now.
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Сiro, it's much more exciting to watch the horrendous coverage of the 24h of Nurburgring (mr.Tilke's racing there too :wink: ) than the F1 standards coverage of the 'subtle' dish of asphalt, concrete and armco at Valencia that made many TV viewers (hardcore F1 fans) fall asleep literally #-o

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Afterburner
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Someone here mentioned Barber Motorsport Park, well, Autodromo do Algarve in Portimão is very similar to Barber, i don't know who designed them but they had similar ideias. A smell of Portimao race track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIYs6pOsmR0

timbo
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Note that most Tilke's tracks present enough spectacle. They are designed with overtaking in mind. That's why a long straight with a tight corner at the end.
Compare that to Barcelona - pretty interesting and challenging to drive, but often boring to watch.

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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Image

First attempt :)
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Afterburner
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Scotracer wrote:Image

First attempt :)
I think FIA demands a tight first corner for safety reasons, your first corner would be a little bit dangerous on starts.

Portimao has two options on the first corner, one very tight demanded from FIA so they've made a chicane and the other option is less tight. Some people here may remember Estoril race track and their complete flat two first corners of the 90's, now, after FIA's requirement's, it's also very tight.

Estoril, 1991 with MS, Benneton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNBFgXVIKYs

Estoril, 2008 with Stewart Moseley, Radical SR8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0D4WHMx ... re=related

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WhiteBlue
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Herman Tilke obviously is a racer or he would not do the 24h race on a track like the Nordschleife. You have to have balls to do the green hell by night. It is a marvellous race although it only gets audio coverage.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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ernos5
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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modbaraban wrote:
Scotracer wrote:For crying out loud, the drivers don't even brake in Sector 1!
Don't they brake a little before Chapel?! (to load the front)
yes they do, to load the front and also to loose some speed, but it is only a small dab off the brakes, almost not noticeable.

andartop
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Ciro, of course, is right.
After all, this is his field of expertise.
However, not everything is maths and rules.
An architect for example, might as well argue that the Gherkin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_St_Mary_Axe) is a miracle of modern design and engineering, and that would probably be true.
The poor bastard who begs every morning in the corner across the street though, might argue that it looks like a cucumber (to be polite), and that is also true.
So, I might not know all the regulations about track construction by heart (promise to have a look!), and I might not know anything about "envolvent of trajectories" (evolvent?), and I might not have a PhD on race track engineering, but I still believe, as a F1 fan, that the new Hockenheimring is a castrated version of the old one (to be polite!). It still might be a mouth-watering piece of modern race track design, agreed, but you can't beat the old terrifyingly long back straights through the forest!
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

Scotracer
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil?

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Afterburner wrote:
Scotracer wrote:Image

First attempt :)
I think FIA demands a tight first corner for safety reasons, your first corner would be a little bit dangerous on starts.

Portimao has two options on the first corner, one very tight demanded from FIA so they've made a chicane and the other option is less tight. Some people here may remember Estoril race track and their complete flat two first corners of the 90's, now, after FIA's requirement's, it's also very tight.

Estoril, 1991 with MS, Benneton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNBFgXVIKYs

Estoril, 2008 with Stewart Moseley, Radical SR8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0D4WHMx ... re=related
Within the regulations nothing states that, as far as I can see. All it says for the start-finish straight and first corner is that there must be 250m between the start-line and the first corner (which is a turn greater than 30° and less than 300m radius).

As far as I can tell, my circuit fits within the regulations. I tried to bring a little Suzuka (first corner), Mugello (2 & 3), Barcelona (4), and Magny-Cours (5). The rest is ad-lib.

I'm not doubting Herman Tilke's ability to create circuits that can be challenging (Bahrain is a very challenging circuit) and be very professionally done...I just doubt his passion behind it. The regulations are not that restrictive and I still feel that multiple designers should be employed to give some variety in the ethos used. Herman knows what he wants and almost all his circuits follow that pattern (Abu Dhabi is a TEXT BOOK Tilke track).

Even my mother, who I asked what she liked from an F1 track said elevation first. Yes she's been watching F1 since the 60s so that will have something to do with it but my point stands - elevation changes and distinctive sections of circuits are very useful (this is what I shall outline as Point 4 on the original post).
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Re: F1 circuits the root of all evil? *Updated with #4*

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Is Tilke a Mason?

PS: Future Tilke track designs...

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