Brawn and Newey

[Michiba]

This reminds me of an article in F1 magazine a few years ago, where they compared Newey to Schumacher (even more indirect comparison). At that time, it showed Newey to be on top in terms of wins/points etc (with his winning cars from williams and mac at the time). Perhaps Schuey has come out on top since then.

[DaveKillens]

From 1992 through 2004 the World Drivers' Championship was an exclusive battle between 'Schuey' and 'Newey', with Rory Byrne engineering Michael Schumacher to 7 titles whilst Adrian Newey engineered Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve and Häkkinen to 6 titles.

This can be debated forever. Newey is responsible for less titles, but he did it with different drivers, and more importantly, different teams. Byrne achieved success with the same team and driver. And without any doubt, the team under Schumacher was as well organized and efficient as could be imagined. But to complicate the issue, Kimi won in a Byrne car, which raises his total to 8.
You can flip a coin to decide a winner on this one, it all depends on a person's individual opinion. As far as I am concerned, both are amazing engineers with stellar records.

[bhallg2k]

Are you debating yourself?

[Michiba]

From 1992 through 2004 the World Drivers' Championship was an exclusive battle between 'Schuey' and 'Newey', with Rory Byrne engineering Michael Schumacher to 7 titles whilst Adrian Newey engineered Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve and Häkkinen to 6 titles.

This can be debated forever. Newey is responsible for less titles, but he did it with different drivers, and more importantly, different teams. Byrne achieved success with the same team and driver. And without any doubt, the team under Schumacher was as well organized and efficient as could be imagined. But to complicate the issue, Kimi won in a Byrne car, which raises his total to 8.
You can flip a coin to decide a winner on this one, it all depends on a person's individual opinion. As far as I am concerned, both are amazing engineers with stellar records.

sorry, I missed that, should learn to read posts completely before posting.

These types of comparisons are always moot because they're indirect and very subjective.

To go back to the original question, I think the peole being discussed are both very good at what they do and managed to get into surroundings that is synergistic with their talents. Michael recognised must have recognised the importance of this when he switched to ferrari.

In contrast, one can use the example of Mike Gascoyne, who is arguably very good at what he does, but hasn't really managed to get himself into a position where he can work synergistically with those around him to excel.

[outer_bongolia]

From 1992 through 2004 the World Drivers' Championship was an exclusive battle between 'Schuey' and 'Newey', with Rory Byrne engineering Michael Schumacher to 7 titles whilst Adrian Newey engineered Mansell, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve and Häkkinen to 6 titles.

This can be debated forever. Newey is responsible for less titles, but he did it with different drivers, and more importantly, different teams. Byrne achieved success with the same team and driver. And without any doubt, the team under Schumacher was as well organized and efficient as could be imagined. But to complicate the issue, Kimi won in a Byrne car, which raises his total to 8.
You can flip a coin to decide a winner on this one, it all depends on a person's individual opinion. As far as I am concerned, both are amazing engineers with stellar records.

I agree it can be debated forever, but...

Put Michael Schumacher in a Force India, he may finish 12th in a couple of races.
Put Mansell in a Newey car, and he is a champion (you might guess what I think of Mansell as a driver, let's not discuss it - it's just that I never enjoyed his style).

[James_graham]

Do people think that the age of the great designers, ie Newey, Newey, Southgate, are coming to an end?

Is it now more about getting the talents out of people like Brawn?

I think so as there are so many people in a team now that a talent like brawn would produce a better car and it isnt about one man in the design stage, more to lead people

[xpensive]

I think that, at least, designing an F1 car is way more of a team-effort today.

I read somewhere Gordon Murray xplaining that on the 1973 BT42, he practically draw every bolt and nut himself.

[James_graham]

Yeah I remember him saying that back then there were only like two people in the design team! amazing. and that there are only a handful of people in F1 now that can desing a whole car. Then again things are more complex now!

[outer_bongolia]

I don't think that the great designers are disappearing. Instead, it is getting hard to see their effects because of the tighter regulations.


I just looked at the year that you mentioned, 1973, and the cars were so different from each other. There was so much playing room for the designers, and they could create something extraordinary (or the monstrosity of 1976 Ligier - click here and scroll down).

Nowadays, the regulations are virtually drawing the car for the teams. You need to have a designer spending months on the endplates of the front wing to be able to optimize it to a point that gives them an advantage of 0.005sec/lap. That makes the design of RBR5 all the more special.

[xpensive]

True, but another way of seeing things is that the cars ar so optimized now, through windtunnels and all, they all pretty much arrive at the same shape.
Back in 73, most of the design was limited to guess-work and funny ideas, such as how air under the car was an evil.

[James_graham]

I have to agree I thik that the genius of designers to introduce aspects like the fan car and aerodynamics to racing were massive innovations drawn from people trying to get round regulations and find ways to go faster. Innovations in ecent years, like the mass damper and DDD are less obvious to see (with respect to massive changed on how the car looks)

[tarzoon]

Don't forget Gordon Murray, please!

He designed the Brabhams that won in 81 and 83. He designed the brabham BT55 (a failure) which gave birth to the McLaren MP4/4 (15 out of 16 wins) and won four consecutive titles with McLaren.

In addition, he also designed the best road car ever (the McLaren F1, IMHO), the McMerc SLR and is also behind the Caparo T1.


Now going back to the initial topic...

These guys are good, because they have the skills to understand cars, rules and people. I don't think it's possible to pinpoint something and forget the rest: they have people working for them that are that specific, and it will be their task to make every little aspect work.