BMW to leave Formula One at end of 2009

[xpensive]

Great fun to wildly speculate on that one! The idea that BMW has an interest to off-load the team rather simply shutting it down makes great sense to me anyway, while Nelson has some experience of running teams for Nelsihno in lesser formulaes, correct?

But Ferrari engines, lost me there really. Couldn't the new owner by a dozen or so of this years long-life engines from BMW, re-badge them and have the maintenence through Mader, Zakspeed, or someone?

[SZ]

Great fun to wildly speculate on that one! The idea that BMW has an interest to off-load the team rather simply shutting it down makes great sense to me anyway, while Nelson has some experience of running teams for Nelsihno in lesser formulaes, correct?

But Ferrari engines, lost me there really. Couldn't the new owner by a dozen or so of this years long-life engines from BMW, re-badge them and have the maintenence through Mader, Zakspeed, or someone?

BMW will have been looking to sell the team for a while, as it's cheaper and less of a PR heartache to do so. The announcement that they're pulling out and not handing over to a new buyer simply means to date there's no serious buyers and and that they're prepared to exit and absorb the costs of doing so fully. There's going to be a few prospective new owners to speculate over...

...but it's doubtful if the engines will ever come with the deal. BMW manufacturers many engine parts including block and head castings. If BMW was willing to sell the intellectual property of their engines - including how they're manufactured, which is a huge legal operation in itself (and something that is unlikely to ever happen) - you'd still need to find and fund an operation to cast parts, machine them back, etc. Cleanroom assembly is the least of your worries; you'd them need to bring their manufacturing processes up to speed - so facilities for destructive engine testing and development also, knowledge of relevant test processes, etc - such that manufacturing and assembly quality were sufficient to guarantee an assembled engine out of the factory was good for so many starts, so much power, so many hours use, etc...

There are probably two companies in the world that are not current 'official' F1 engine manufacturers with the capabilities of doing so. Of them, Cosworth is back in the game next year and Mecachrome has the same relationship they've always had with Renault - we'll build them, you design them - would be hard to imagine BMW handing over their IP to them! Nor would separate facilities be cost effective.

If a new buyer really, really wanted BMW engines, the cheapest way to do it would be to pay BMW to continue their involvement with the team as an engine supplier. BMW might want to do this but remember that unlike staff terminations, there's no mega-gardening-leave style payout for halting engine supply... it might be cheaper to just stop!

But if a team really just wanted to get into the grid, they're going to be scratching for pennies to do so. Unless Ferrari or some other supplier feels generous or a sponsor really thinks there's going to be a significant performance advantage in something special worth tipping an extra 20m+ into (remember, all teams would need to consent to Ferrari supplying another team)...

...the obvious choice is to get a Cosworth and worry about getting racing!

Unless Piquet snr knows something about the spec engine's packaging or performance that we don't yet know... talking up Ferrari engines diminishes the seriousness of his bid and makes it sound a little more wishful than serious! But who knows. Anything to keep a team on the grid and people in jobs isn't a bad thing.

The first reliable data or feedback on the Cosworth powerplant are going to be interesting.

[SZ]

I should add to the above that it's F1... and stranger things have happened!

[xpensive]

And stranger still SZ, not only did I find your posting most credible and interesting, I also agree with you with everything, xept the support needed to run this years BMW engines for another season.

[SZ]

And stranger still SZ, not only did I find your posting most credible and interesting, I also agree with you with everything, xept the support needed to run this years BMW engines for another season.

Oh don't get me wrong. I'd like to see Mader do it, but there's work for them to get up to speed. (And the small matter of BMW's intellectual property being sold on... which is probably worth more to BMW than what leased Cosworth engines cost a new team.)

It'd be nice for anything picking up the team, as there's probably a nearly completed design for a 2010 racer in Hinwil that's only designed for one engine...

[xpensive]

If we think about it, isn't such a scenario what happened when BMW left the turbo-era, Mader took over the support, similarily to when Renault left after 1997, leaving things to Mechachrome?

And with today's engine-lifespan requirements compared with a turbo, I'm not so sure of the difficulties really.

But on the other hand, for the 2010 car, obviously designed around the BMW engine, but with the strict physical regulations of today's, crank centerline, cylinder-spacing, weight and vee-angle, perhaps it does not take that much to convert to another brand anyway, just as proved by BrawnGP this year?

[SZ]

If we think about it, isn't such a scenario what happened when BMW left the turbo-era, Mader took over the support, similarily to when Renault left after 1997, leaving things to Mechachrome?

And with today's engine-lifespan requitrements compared with a turbo, I'm not so sure of the difficulties really.

But on the other hand, for the 20010 car, obviously designed around the BMW engine, but with the strict physical regulations of today's, crank centerline, cylinder-spacing, weight and vee-angle, perhaps it does not take that much to convert to another brand anyway, just as proved by BrawnGP this year?

When BMW left and Mader took over, F1 engines weren't nearly mission critical in build as they are now. It's not about how long the engine lasts once it's running, it's getting an engine that you build to last as long as someone else designed it to. That's a massive challenge. Under the current rules you'd need also add the infrastructure to issue updates to the engines. That requires buying the design rights and setting up a lot of testing. This is already much more money than what Cosworth will charge for engines that will get upgraded as time goes on and arrive at the factory in a box ready to use.

Renault and Mecachrome is hardly the same. Mecachrome has almost always manufactured and built Renault's designs (at least all of it's customer engines in time past... and the current engine today). So It was relatively easy for Renault to lease out the design rights for a period of time - Mecachrome was already effectively supplying their engines.

Brawn proved it can be done, yes, but they were also somewhat flattered by the Honda engine being not all that competitive . It's a fast car, sure, but not 'put that Honda engine back in it and watch it win races' fast.

Don't doubt that Mader could with a bit of investment, doubt highly BMW would let them or that it'd be cost effective for anyone to do so... stranger things have happened though...

[xpensive]

Both relevant as well as consequent arguing SZ, time will tell I guess.

[SZ]

Possibly.... but then we have Piquet snr making noises about looking to place his son in a Ferrari-powered Hinwil-designed car next year.

The conspiracy theorists will observe that Ferrari can only supply one team, and that Piquet's noises correspond well with the current Ferrari funded team not giving the red team their support in testing a certain Schumacher...

...stranger things have happened...

Peter Sauber makes a point about preserving a motorsports industry in Switzerland, not an easy thing to do. Should a sympathetic and cashed up Swiss motorsport nut make BMW and Mader offers they can't refuse... you do make a point in that BMW would have the only competitive and spare F1 engine design available next year...

[xpensive]

Just one more thing on those engines, I have perceived the rules as any updates are a no-no, am I wrong in that respect?

[SZ]

Just one more thing on those engines, I have perceived the rules as any updates are a no-no, am I wrong in that respect?

'Performance updates', not allowed.
'Reliability updates' certainly allowed. Now, if a reliability updates helps make more power...

One can easily deduce that since the development freeze, the Mercedes engine has become far more 'reliable' than it used to be! We thus have a competition to make the most 'reliable' engines.

[xpensive]

I am still rather certain that you need a concession from the FIA for every "reliability upgrade" of your engine.

[timbo]

The conspiracy theorists will observe that Ferrari can only supply one team, and that Piquet's noises correspond well with the current Ferrari funded team not giving the red team their support in testing a certain Schumacher...

Why, last year Ferrari supplied two teams (FI and STR)?

I wonder whether Peter Sauber still has good relationships with Ferrari? Would we see Sauber Petronas again?

Yeah, and as a second thought - who built Petronas engines? Did BMW taken other that infrastructure too?

[SZ]

I am still rather certain that you need a concession from the FIA for every "reliability upgrade" of your engine.

That's the thing. You do. But they're decided on a case-by-case basis and the decisions aren't shared amongst all teams. Nice.

Why, last year Ferrari supplied two teams (FI and STR)?

I wonder whether Peter Sauber still has good relationships with Ferrari? Would we see Sauber Petronas again?

Yeah, and as a second thought - who built Petronas engines? Did BMW taken other that infrastructure too?

Engine manufacturers are supposed to be limited to a single customer presently. Mercedes required consent of all other teams - particularly FI - to supply Brawn. It's not that it can't be done. It is an extraordinary measure though.

Petronas... rebadged customer Ferrari engines, made in Italy.

Anyone has good relationships with Ferrari... you need lubricate that handshake with a bit of money though. As in, probably more money than a Cosworth package should cost.

[Conceptual]

I am still rather certain that you need a concession from the FIA for every "reliability upgrade" of your engine.

That's the thing. You do. But they're decided on a case-by-case basis and the decisions aren't shared amongst all teams. Nice.

Why, last year Ferrari supplied two teams (FI and STR)?

I wonder whether Peter Sauber still has good relationships with Ferrari? Would we see Sauber Petronas again?

Yeah, and as a second thought - who built Petronas engines? Did BMW taken other that infrastructure too?

Engine manufacturers are supposed to be limited to a single customer presently. Mercedes required consent of all other teams - particularly FI - to supply Brawn. It's not that it can't be done. It is an extraordinary measure though.

Petronas... rebadged customer Ferrari engines, made in Italy.

Anyone has good relationships with Ferrari... you need lubricate that handshake with a bit of money though. As in, probably more money than a Cosworth package should cost.

...but with proven reliability and 3 years of reliability upgrades.

I look to 2010 being full of Cosworth Oil Bombs...