Alonso - Ferrari - Renault...

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.

Post Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:56 pm

Fisi came from middle nowhere in the end of the season - Alonso and Kimi will get plenty of testing before the season so there shouldn't be too much problems matching guys with identical cars.
imho, Alonso will not only mach Massa but also will beat him easily. Of course if luck won't turn it's back to him like it did to Kimi last year.
Hamilton-Raikkonen sounds more interesting. Whitmarsh has told recently that they've made many mistakes while managing Alonso and Hamilton in one team. Let's wait and see how it will go on this time.
nuno
 
Joined: 28 Sep 2009

Post Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:32 pm

nuno wrote:Fisi came from middle nowhere in the end of the season - Alonso and Kimi will get plenty of testing before the season so there shouldn't be too much problems matching guys with identical cars.
imho, Alonso will not only mach Massa but also will beat him easily. Of course if luck won't turn it's back to him like it did to Kimi last year.
Hamilton-Raikkonen sounds more interesting. Whitmarsh has told recently that they've made many mistakes while managing Alonso and Hamilton in one team. Let's wait and see how it will go on this time.


personally I predict Lewis to be the complainer. Kimi doesn't say --- about anything. He just drives and goes home to eat more ice cream.
sticky667
 
Joined: 9 Mar 2009

Post Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:31 pm

bill shoe wrote:
I see 5 or 6 teams with paid drivers, 2 or 3 who let the drivers have a go for free, and 5 teams with drivers chosen by passport and/or how much money they bring. It's a bit depressing for the mid field and new teams.

The driver pairings at the top 5 teams are the strongest I have ever seen. Actually very impressive. It will be very difficult for teams outside the big 5 to score points.


Nelson's daddy can pay some money to get his slow son a ride.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1
gcdugas
 
Joined: 19 Sep 2006

Post Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:56 pm

i really cant understand why ferrari is dropping kimi...if alonso comes comes for 2010 then why kimi have to leave ??? how can ferrari bet on an injured massa ?? and do you really believe massa is better than kimi ???
sunny1304
 
Joined: 23 Sep 2008

Post Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:32 pm

sunny1304 wrote:i really cant understand why ferrari is dropping kimi...if alonso comes comes for 2010 then why kimi have to leave ??? how can ferrari bet on an injured massa ?? and do you really believe massa is better than kimi ???

they need just one driver capable of being world champion, if provided with winning car, and Alonso for sure is the one who can deliver.

apart from him they need second driver good enough to score points needed to get constructor's championship.

both Kimi and Alonso can bring the title to Maranello but:

1. Santander likes Alonso much more than Kimi
2. Alonso is much more "media friendly"
3. Alonso fits better into "family team" image Ferrari is trying to sell to the world than Kimi
4. Alonso is not the one who likes strong opposition on the other side of garage

we can make this list longer but, I think, points 1-4 are enough to explain why Ferrari decided to have Alonso on board.
noname
 
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Location: EU

Post Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:52 pm

Conceptual wrote:As long as Kimi's contract stipulates that he gets the same upgrades as Lewis at the same time, and equal support, I don't see a problem.

Also, does anyone really believe that Alonso will be able to hop into a Ferrari and be able to match Massa? I mean, look at Fisi. Identical car to Kimi, and he can't get anywhere near him.

Although, with Massa out for the remainder of the season, this may equal it out a bit...

Does anyone think that Massa got preferential treatment due to Schumacher re-signing with the Scuderia?


These are good points. I agree McLaren will be able to handle two roughly equal drivers. This policy cost them championships two years ago with Alonso and Hamilton, but by sticking to their priciples and continuing this policy McLaren has set themselves up for a dream pairing next year.

In contrast I don't think Alonso would be willing to go to Ferrari unless he was the clear #1. I don't mean in terms of speed relative to Massa, but in terms of contractual arrangements, development direction, support personnel, etc.

I remember that 4 or 5 years ago at Monaco, Trulli beat Alonso in a straight fight within Renault for the pole position and win. I think that was the moment when Alonso decided he would never tolerate an equal teammate. This mindset explains why Alonso became so bizarrely angry so early in the season during his one year at McLaren when it became clear Hamilton was equal in terms of talent and contract. I think Spy-gate simply saved Alonso from being remembered as the driver who had the biggest hissy-fit in Formula 1 history.

Anyway, I really respect Massa and wish him a complete recovery, but I think 2010 will be his toughest year ever. Schumacher could at least give some human support and sympathy to the #2 driver, but I don't see Alonso doing that.
bill shoe
 
Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Location: Dallas, Texas, USA

Post Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:21 pm

Strange. Alonso told F1 Racing magazine that he hasn't asked for #1 status - just wasn't satisfied with #4 or #5 status. We've never heard someone from McLaren denying it. Even Whitmarsh was sorry for Alonso situation few weeks ago. So maybe let's wait for next year and we will see how british team would behave with british driver again having somebody not a 0.5/lap slower at his side.
nuno
 
Joined: 28 Sep 2009

Post Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:21 pm

nuno wrote:let's wait for next year and we will see how british team would behave with british driver again having somebody not a 0.5/lap slower at his side.


Not sure about the "British" comment. What about Brawn this year? What about all the other British based teams? If nationality was important for them, then we'd see a lot more British drivers on the grid. Ask Hill and Mansell about national loyalty!
richard_leeds
 
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Location: UK

Post Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:01 pm

I fear that Massa if he comes back may loose some of his speed (at least for some time). As a result Alonso's superiority over Massa would sort of justify what is otherwise the galactically wasteful transfer Santander are about to pull out. I'm sure Nando would have a hard time beating Massa in Ferrari this year.
modbaraban
 
Joined: 5 Apr 2007
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Post Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:03 am

noname wrote:
sunny1304 wrote:i really cant understand why ferrari is dropping kimi...if alonso comes comes for 2010 then why kimi have to leave ??? how can ferrari bet on an injured massa ?? and do you really believe massa is better than kimi ???

they need just one driver capable of being world champion, if provided with winning car, and Alonso for sure is the one who can deliver.

apart from him they need second driver good enough to score points needed to get constructor's championship.

both Kimi and Alonso can bring the title to Maranello but:

1. Santander likes Alonso much more than Kimi
2. Alonso is much more "media friendly"
3. Alonso fits better into "family team" image Ferrari is trying to sell to the world than Kimi
4. Alonso is not the one who likes strong opposition on the other side of garage

we can make this list longer but, I think, points 1-4 are enough to explain why Ferrari decided to have Alonso on board.


Thanks for the clarification. We all know that Ferrari and Santander do not want Kimi at Ferrari next year. What about Kimi himself? Doesn't he previously think that he can achieve more success at Ferrari, than at Mclaren? The bad luck he had suffered when he was at Mclaren may continue to haunt him in the future. Correct me if I am wrong. Especially now, Mercedes will pour more funding to BrawnGP, so the development of Mclaren will be somewhat limited. I do not suppose that Kimi does not care which team he drives for? :? Are you all saying that give him a competitive car, vodka and ice cream and he does not care a --- of which car he drive?
Last edited by alvinkhorfire on Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
alvinkhorfire
 
Joined: 6 Jul 2008

Post Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:53 am

alvinkhorfire wrote:Thanks for the clarification. We all know that Ferrari and Santander do not want Kimi at Ferrari next year. What about Kimi himself? Doesn't he previously think that he can achieve more success at Ferrari, than at Mclaren? The bad luck he had suffered when he was at Mclaren may continue to haunt him in the future. Correct me if I am wrong. Especially now, Mercedes will pour more funding to BrawnGP, so the development of Mclaren will be somewhat limited. I do not suppose that Kimi does not care which team he drives for? :? Are you all saying that give him a competitive car, vodka and ice cream and he do not care a --- of which car he drive?

Kimi lost 2 titles (2003 and 2005) mainly due reliability issues but looks like McLaren solved the problem. Their 2007 and 2008 cars were fast and strong, this year they started on the back foot but now have a winning car. I expect them to be strong next year also.

I am not too concerned due Mercedes involvement into Brawn - McLaren is more than Merc.

As for the Kimi it does not matter if he wants to be with Ferrari if they prefer Alonso. And as far as the car is concerned much more than the color its speed is what really matters, and I think the same can be said about any other racing driver.
noname
 
Joined: 13 Feb 2009
Location: EU

Post Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:20 am

I was watching a post race interview with the BBC and Martin Whitmarsh. When they asked him a direct Raikkonen-McLaren question the answer wasn't forthcoming, but the yes was written all over his face.

And regarding the driver status. This is McLaren. If you're not good enough to be at the front, you won't be put there. Coulthard could have been helped to the title in 2000 in the last 2 races, but he wasn't good enough, and Hakinen walked all over him. I think that's why I like McLaren so much, and why I have my reservations about Schumi and Ferrari.
gibells
 
Joined: 8 Apr 2009
Location: Andalucia, Spain

Post Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:01 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... ilton.html

I think this DC column is very interesting and humble...

"I lasted six years at McLaren but it was mainly because I never achieved full No1 status yet was fast enough to be an effective wing man for Mika Hakkinen and Raikkonen. Heikki Kovalainen, unfortunately for him, is not fulfilling that brief, hence the [predicted] return of the Iceman to Woking. "
- Axle
axle
 
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Location: Norfolk, UK

Post Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:52 am

Alonso to Ferrari is all about money, Santander money. marlboro are scaling back their activities in F1 since the effect of the tobacco advertising ban is resulting in a loss of identity of the brand with ferrari. The Scuderia need to replace that money and convert their sponsorship income from tobacco to something else soonest.
With Santander came Alonso.
With Alonso, comes the Kimi get out clause. Alonso had a teamamte once who had the measure of him and it did not work out well for him. He won;t repeat that situation again so he won't go to Ferrari if Kimi stays.

Kimi will go to McLaren. I don't think he is as charmed with the post Todt culture as he thought he would be.Also he has tasted the Ferrari fruit and realised that it's not really who he is.

So heres my prediction for f1 next year:

Brawn Mercedes GP: Button / Rosberg (merc wants a german driver)
Red Bull Mercedes : Vettel / Webber (confirmed)
Ferrari : Massa / Alonso
Toyota : Out (possible engine supply only)
Renault Sport : Out (move to engine supply only)
Sauber Ferrari : Heidfeld / Fisichella
Force India Mercedes: Sutil / Liuzzi
Torro Rosso Ferrari: Glock / Buemi
MacLaren : Hamilton / Raikonnen
Williams Renault: Barrichello / Hulkenberg
Campos Cosworth F1: Alguersari / Grosjean
Manor Cosworth F1: Piquet jnr / Anthony Davidson
Lotus Cosworth F1: Trulli / ???
USF1 Cosworth : some young American driver / Jacque Villeneuve
Prodrive Aston Martin: Vitali Petrov /
Raptor22
 
Joined: 7 Apr 2009

Post Tue Sep 29, 2009 9:57 am

noname wrote:
alvinkhorfire wrote:
I am not too concerned due Mercedes involvement into Brawn - McLaren is more than Merc.

.


Mercedes involvement with Mercedes is up for renewal at the end of 2011 I believe so I think you may see McLaren built its own engine by then. It will fit in with their aspiration to be become a proper sports car manufacturer. Mercedes is hedging its bet by transittioning to Brawn for a more long term future in F1.
Their current engine is certainly becoming the Cosworth DFV of the 21st century.
Raptor22
 
Joined: 7 Apr 2009

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