A great F1 passing study (must read!)

[Oridori]

So, what about including more corners that would benefit mistakes. I'm thinking of those situations which make me struggle most on a track (ofc, not saying that my driving skills are anywhere near of those of a pro-driver ).

Say you have a rather fast corner going over some sort of crest, getting tighter and requiring breaking in the later, downhill part while at the same time dropping off to the outside and a straight line following all this(i hope this is somehow comprehensible).

That's only one example of what i could think of to make tracks more challenging and less forgiving than say Abu Dhabi Well, at least it would make me struggle heh

[marcush.]

the deeper you think about all this artificial stuff about track design and cars .I still don´t understand what easy overtaking should do for improved spectacle in racing.
The basic error is to assume that time differences in qualy will not translate into the race when you are not allowed to change the car ,fuelload etc.so with the quickest guy on pole and all others aligned behinf according to elapsed time ,you only have the variable of exceptional starting by selected drivers be it good or to the bad plus mishaps during the busy first laps when trafic does indeed limit your laptime not potential speed.

So effectively the question should be why you need to make passing easier in the first place when passing happens .

Second question is what are the incredients for a really entertaining race?

I believe F1 cars should be able to survive bigger impacts during wheel to wheel fights and slight contact as was the case in earlier days.This would at least help the drivers not to worry too much about going for it .Additionally a time advantage going thru the pitlane would help to counter time lost in races due to
front wing damage or a change of tyres.

[Richard]

A question for Ciro and the other number crunchers, has technology such as paddle shift steering wheels and semi automtic gearboxes affected overtaking statistics?

See page 2 of the thead.

IMO the better quality mechanics have closed up the field and removed uncertainty, that adds a major factor to today's processions.

[nipo]

Second question is what are the incredients for a really entertaining race?

This reminds me of the MS days. I had no problems with that cos I am a Ferrari fan but I guess for a lot of people those years when the red cars dominated it wasn't exactly fun to watch, where every race is like "will MS fly away from the start, or will he just win by a little?"

The field was too separated back then. But now that is not the case. BUT some of us are still complaining about races boring us to death (or to sleep, as happened to me a few times this season). The most important reason, I think, is that passing using pit strategy pays off much better than wheel-to-wheel racing in F1 today. Teams and drivers don't want to risk anything and face a tough time when they could take a better approach and mount a challenge over the pits. So if you are somehow stuck behind a slower car in a race, just wait for the pits.

Question - How do we make passing over the pits LESS rewarding? Is the ban on refuelling this answer?

I believe F1 cars should be able to survive bigger impacts during wheel to wheel fights and slight contact as was the case in earlier days.This would at least help the drivers not to worry too much about going for it .Additionally a time advantage going thru the pitlane would help to counter time lost in races due to
front wing damage or a change of tyres.

Great point!!! I wish they ban like the wheel covers and the ultra-wide front wings so at least that will take away a little bit of the headache.

[Rod_in_Chile]

I think the wheel covers are banned this year and I agree the front wing is too wide I would like the to go back to the 2008 width

[marcush.]

I think the wheel covers are banned this year and I agree the front wing is too wide I would like the to go back to the 2008 width

my belief is: far more than that is needed.suspension and coolingsystem has to survive a random sideways impact with a competitor unaffected .so slight wheel to wheel or wheel to sidepot will not end a competitors race.
The penalty for loosing a frontwing or suffering a puncture is very high anyways ,as you have reduced performance instantly ,so the actual way thru the pit should not impose a additional penalty.It would be possible to create inlap outlap circuit layouts considerably shorter than conducting the racetrack.This would in my view make the drivers more trying to actually take chances in trying to pass .

[Rod_in_Chile]

maybe your right about the suspension but I wouldn't go too far making it impact resistant, if drivers don't have to worry about damaging it touching wheels we might end up seeing a few dangerous accidents.
It may also make the wall of Champions in Montreal less daunting

[outer_bongolia]

I think the wheel covers are banned this year and I agree the front wing is too wide I would like the to go back to the 2008 width

my belief is: far more than that is needed.suspension and coolingsystem has to survive a random sideways impact with a competitor unaffected .so slight wheel to wheel or wheel to sidepot will not end a competitors race.
The penalty for loosing a frontwing or suffering a puncture is very high anyways ,as you have reduced performance instantly ,so the actual way thru the pit should not impose a additional penalty.It would be possible to create inlap outlap circuit layouts considerably shorter than conducting the racetrack.This would in my view make the drivers more trying to actually take chances in trying to pass .

I agree with you on that. But the only way to make the drivers take the risk of passing is by making the better finishes more rewarding. I would not risk losing 8 points (finishing 2nd) to earn 2 points more (finishing 1st). But who would not take the risk if the difference was ability to take home twice as many points? I would say something like:

7th: 1
6th: 2
5th: 3
4th: 5
3th: 10
2nd: 20
1st: 30

It looks like an inflation of points, but finishing one position higher would carry so much more importance that the drivers would actually push to pass instead of cruising to the end of the race.

[outer_bongolia]

So, what about including more corners that would benefit mistakes. I'm thinking of those situations which make me struggle most on a track (ofc, not saying that my driving skills are anywhere near of those of a pro-driver ).

Say you have a rather fast corner going over some sort of crest, getting tighter and requiring breaking in the later, downhill part while at the same time dropping off to the outside and a straight line following all this(i hope this is somehow comprehensible).

That's only one example of what i could think of to make tracks more challenging and less forgiving than say Abu Dhabi Well, at least it would make me struggle heh

How about making the cars more punishing? A shortened wheelbase -by up to 50cm- will result in a less forgiving car when it comes to small mistakes at the corners.

[marcush.]

ha..
what about driver distractions?
somwhwere else in this forum it was posted that certain drivers had big dificulties to keep their blood in the head during monaco grand prix BECAUSE of a banner at the track-AND ADMITTING this as well...
I#d say put some half naked top Models at the difficult points at the track lifting their skirt or shirts when cars of dominant competitors approach...it worked for Stuck ages ago...maybe it will work for Bernie and the overtaking working group as well...


not serious but there is a point..

[Pandamasque]

ha..
what about driver distractions?
somwhwere else in this forum it was posted that certain drivers had big dificulties to keep their blood in the head during monaco grand prix BECAUSE of a banner at the track-AND ADMITTING this as well...
I#d say put some half naked top Models at the difficult points at the track lifting their skirt or shirts when cars of dominant competitors approach...it worked for Stuck ages ago...maybe it will work for Bernie and the overtaking working group as well...


not serious but there is a point..

I remember that banner very well. It was distracting indeed. you can create some overtaking in this way. The problem is that the audience would as well struggle to pay attention to the race

[Ciro Pabón]

That is a very old trick.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo3PaXshxAM[/youtube]

However, I agree. Yeah, let's take out the car radios and force them to communicate with pits via cellphones and text messaging. That should work.

[Andres125sx]

Split from the 2014 Russian GP thread ...
________________________________________

When exactly was this glorious time when cars could pass one another at will, because I'm pretty sure it hasn't been during my life time.

Before aero became dominant aspect

So, 1960 then? How many F1 races from them have you actually watched?

60´s? Well yes, they were not aero dependant, they didn´t even know what aerodynamics mean

But much sooner, 80´s for example. This is not an aero dependant car


But don´t get me wrong, I´m not saying aero should be banned, but it should be regulated to allow cleaner slipstreams. It´s perfectly plausible

[dans79]

But much sooner, 80´s for example. This is not an aero dependant car

I have to disagree, the cars have been aero dependent for a long time. Periods of development stagnation have occurred, but they have always needed good aero to win.

69: wings are rapidly developed
77: the lotus 78 made a break through it what today we would call the floor
92: the the FW14B and it's active suspension obliterated everyone

[Moose]

But much sooner, 80´s for example. This is not an aero dependant car

Frankly, if you're trying to claim that the 80s were the paragon of F1 racing, you need to go back and actually watch some races.

Many races were dull as --- back then. The fact that we had one dull race and a dull track doesn't mean that the current F1 is broken. We have in fact had several superb races this year, far more than you generally got "back in the day".