F1 reverse line up

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readonly
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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autogyro wrote:I raced that way for a number of years on the short ovals in hot rods.
It works very well and has for years.
Please explain further how it worked for those that have not seen it.

readonly
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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Pandamasque wrote:@ readonly & feynman so the one who builds the fastest (in clean air) car and does the overtaking in the pitlane wins! :mrgreen:
No. Teams would develop their cars to do the overtaking. This is, a fast car that can follow closely another one. Rules could help here if they reduced the total amount of available downforce to very low values. Races should be long enough to permit the best car to finish the job. Of course if the driver is not as good in overtaking he might not get to the front even in the fastest car.

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flynfrog
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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readonly wrote:
autogyro wrote:I raced that way for a number of years on the short ovals in hot rods.
It works very well and has for years.
Please explain further how it worked for those that have not seen it.
the way it works here is you set a qualy time then they have heat races 6 to 10 cars reverse order starts top 2-4 move on to the A main the rest get spread across that B-D mains top two from each main move into the next main. I think your qualy time sets your place in the A if you made it from a heat race. If you come from a lower main you start at the back.

Also they tracks tend to be much easier to pass on.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwneZPLjUIg[/youtube]
Last edited by flynfrog on 29 Apr 2010, 19:02, edited 1 time in total.

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flynfrog
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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you will also notice that the cars are running 3 different lines

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flynfrog
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePQ4a5HN ... re=related[/youtube] on board of a faster car starting from the back

readonly
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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feynman wrote:Yes nipo, Saturday afternoon is tricky.

I don't think CVC and their eye-watering debt would be all that keen to be offering a refund to broadcasters for roughly 30% less sellable track-time. Nor would the circuits, with their throats being cut by FOM as it is, welcome trying to flog tickets for a short two-day weekend (Saturday practice/Sunday race). The mechanics would probably dig it though.

Some sort of sprint race? I think it detracts too much from the main-event, the climax of the weekend, the uniqueness. It's *THE* Grand Prix, not a Grand Prix, oh and a Petit Prix the day before. (Although it would be fun to stick them all in available GP2 cars, Porsches or Aussie V8s, for a cash prize, see who's really all that).


OK, If we are using championship points to decide your starting grid position, then we still run the current knockout qualifying (which, when the laptimes get a bit closer again, is definitely good TV value).
But use this classification to instead give 23 (for pole) down to 0 (last place) "delta points"

These aren't real points, they don't count for anything except being applied as a temporary modifier, subtracted from the driver's championship points ... which means hot one-lappers can use their raw pace to try and move themselves a bit further up the grid.

FOM TV graphics can display the Q times as usual, so we don't lose that, but the other side of the screen can show in real-time what this all means for the grid.

Two drivers with roughly the same championship points, if one significantly outqualifies the other, he would "reduce" his points, meaning he moves himself a bit further up the reverse-grid, a little bit nearer the real points that get handed-out on Sunday.
Close-run squabbles up and down the field all still have something very real worth fighting for, so Saturday qualifying should still be exciting and still mean something (and getting the rain-radar wrong would still have serious consequences, as you remain nailed to the very last row).

Also neatly solves the problem of who lines up where for the first race of a new season.
Yes, Saturdays. There are so many options.

I like your idea but it might just break everything that reversed grids are made for.

My suggestion:

Fridays use the knock out system but not for points, only for more track time.
Saturdays use the same system but not for grid position but for championship points and for track time too. Of course this is basically the opposite idea from yours. The motivation for drivers would not be to start the race further ahead but to climb in the WDC points race. Track time would be very valuable too. I think that drivers would not be tempted to drive slow on saturdays because the ultimate goal is to be WDC and not to win one race. Also, if you did quit on some WDC points for one or two grid positions, you would find that not as worthy because during the first laps you could easily do that extra overtaking due to the amount of traffic everyone faces. Just my thoughts.

autogyro
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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http://www.spedeworth.co.uk/

Far to much to explain in one post.
British Motor Sport at its best.
Many top drivers on the big circuits start on the short ovals.
Racing from the drop of the flag just inches off the fence and inches of the other cars for the complete race. No time to read a newspaper on the back strait in this game.
Martin Brundel learnt his trade among these guys.

I remember the buzz when I gained the gold roof and knew I would be starting from the back from then on. No mamby pamby drivers winning from the front on the short oval.
For years I have wanted to bring this type of motor sport to the TV audiences but vested interest has prevented it. Perhaps it may soon be possible.
I will be ready.

feynman
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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readonly wrote: I like your idea but it might just break everything that reversed grids are made for.
At the start of the season, sorta, but that would actually be quite helpful to damp-down the early wild swings till people start scoring regular points and we get a proper picture of the championship.

But with 25 points awarded for a win, as the season builds, the -23 for qualifying will start to diminish in relative strength, it soon won't buy you as many places as it used to. The championship contenders, the usul suspects, will soon find themselves getting pinned back near the tail of the grid, like we kinda wanted.

We are still just about in that "early phase" of the standing, a lot of zero pointers, but just for laughs I did the championship points position after Malysia, then applied China's qualifying results, to work out what the reversed grid would have looked like:
##      Driver     WDC-Q DeltaPoints  Rank
 1	Felipe Massa	     39-17    22
 2	Fernando Alonso	     37-21    16
 2	Sebastian Vettel     37-23    14
 4	Jenson Button	     35-19    14
 5	Nico Rosberg	     35-20    15
 6	Lewis Hamilton	     31-18    13
 7	Robert Kubica	     30-16    14
 8	Mark Webber	     24-22     2
 9	Adrian Sutil	     10-14    -4
10	Michael Schumacher    9-15    -4
11	Vitantonio Liuzzi     8- 6     2
12	Rubens Barrichello    5-13    -8
13	Jaime Alguersuari     2-12   -10
14	Nico Hülkenberg	      1 -8    -7
15	Bruno Senna	      0 -1    -1
15	Sebastien Buemi	      0-11   -11
15	Vitaly Petrov	      0-10   -10
15	Jarno Trulli	      0 -4    -4
15	Heikki Kovalainen     0 -3    -3
15	Karun Chandhok	      0 -0     0
15	Pedro de la Rosa      0 -7    -7
15	Kamui Kobyashi	      0 -9    -9
15	Timo Glock	      0 -5    -5
15	Lucas di Grassi	      0 -2    -2

Which would have meant this as your starting grid:
Buemi
Petrov
Alguersuari
Kobayashi
Barrichello
De La Rosa
Hulkenberg
Glock
Trulli
Schumacher
Sutil
Kovalainen
Di Grassi
Senna
Chandhok
Liuzzi
Webber
Hamilton
Kubica
Button
Vettel
Rosberg
Alonso
Massa
Which looks quite racy.

So even quite early-on, 3 races, the modifier is not propelling cars all the way back up the grid, but still it remains vitally important to do a fast lap on Saturday compared to your championship rivals.

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Pandamasque
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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readonly wrote:
Pandamasque wrote:@ readonly & feynman so the one who builds the fastest (in clean air) car and does the overtaking in the pitlane wins! :mrgreen:
No. Teams would develop their cars to do the overtaking. This is, a fast car that can follow closely another one. Rules could help here if they reduced the total amount of available downforce to very low values. Races should be long enough to permit the best car to finish the job. Of course if the driver is not as good in overtaking he might not get to the front even in the fastest car.
I'm not so sure. On paper your idea works. But I wonder what would someone like Brawn think about designing a car for overtaking at the expense of ultimate speed. Surely the engineers would fine a way around the rules yet again. Overtaking in the pits is one, and it has been done for awhile now (French GP '04 being the ultimate example).

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machin
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Easy solution to that.... ban tyre changes... therefore no pitstops would take place (unless it rained). It would also be "green" as there'd be a lot fewer tyres to fly around the world!
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ESPImperium
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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The reverse line up grid would shalke things up alot.

readonly
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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feynman wrote:
readonly wrote: I like your idea but it might just break everything that reversed grids are made for.
At the start of the season, sorta, but that would actually be quite helpful to damp-down the early wild swings till people start scoring regular points and we get a proper picture of the championship.

But with 25 points awarded for a win, as the season builds, the -23 for qualifying will start to diminish in relative strength, it soon won't buy you as many places as it used to. The championship contenders, the usul suspects, will soon find themselves getting pinned back near the tail of the grid, like we kinda wanted.

[...]

So even quite early-on, 3 races, the modifier is not propelling cars all the way back up the grid, but still it remains vitally important to do a fast lap on Saturday compared to your championship rivals.
Now I can see your point. If the points difference in the WDC standing is too big between two drivers then the best one will have no chance to start ahead of the worse one. If they have a short difference then Saturday decides the starting order. This idea may get much more acceptance among those that are critics of the idea. That is why I like it. It could make the reverse lineup a reality. Though I would prefer to see drivers with more points behind drivers with less points because, at the race, the best of any pair of teammates would have to actually show it by overtaking his teammate too.

readonly
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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Pandamasque wrote:
readonly wrote:
Pandamasque wrote:@ readonly & feynman so the one who builds the fastest (in clean air) car and does the overtaking in the pitlane wins! :mrgreen:
No. Teams would develop their cars to do the overtaking. This is, a fast car that can follow closely another one. Rules could help here if they reduced the total amount of available downforce to very low values. Races should be long enough to permit the best car to finish the job. Of course if the driver is not as good in overtaking he might not get to the front even in the fastest car.
I'm not so sure. On paper your idea works. But I wonder what would someone like Brawn think about designing a car for overtaking at the expense of ultimate speed. Surely the engineers would fine a way around the rules yet again. Overtaking in the pits is one, and it has been done for awhile now (French GP '04 being the ultimate example).
If you could overtake everyone in just one pit stop then you are right, but normally you can only make one or maybe two overtakings during a pit stop. Considering cars pit once or twice at each race, they would be able to overtake only a few others.

If Brawn finds a way to be at the front, fine. All others could copy his strategy and then we get to see a good fight.

readonly
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Re: F1 reverse line up

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Shrek wrote:How about inverting the first six or so like in Championship Off Road Racing.

For me personally it would be cool inverting the whole field but it won't happen because the top teams will argue about it.
What do you think the top teams' arguments would be?

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machin
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What do you think the top teams' arguments would be?
They would almost certainly TRY and use the "safety" argument; "its not safe having all the fast cars start behind the slow ones.

Someone in the FIA would just have to point out that their drivers just need to lift on the throttle a little bit!
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