Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[wittgenfrog]

Hi All
Thought I'd start off on this hot topic!
For me Vettel is still an unknown quantity. He has been fast in other serioes, he IS fast in F1 under the right conditions.

If he is, as advertised the best of the current generation, how come he is far behind not only Hamilton, but also his unloved (by Red Bull) old team mate Mark Webber.

Let's check a few comparative boxes.

• * In his rookie year Hamilton beat Alonso fair & square in the same very fast car.
  * Vettel cannot consistently beat Webber (or other "top" drivers) in the BEST car.
  * I know he can do the "Schumacher slice" through the back markers, but he is consistently unable cleanly to overtake the better drivers\faster cars.
  * Like Schumacher he is inordinately arrogant. Remeber those twirly fingers when he smashed into Webber?

I'm not saying he won't ever be WDC. Indeed he might even win it this year, but in order to match Button and Hamilton in the current generation and Hakkinen, Mansel et al from the past he needs to get a grip! Those guys can\could all go fast, but they also finished the majority of their races without accidents...

He needs to learn that Race craft is more than simply passing the slow guys.

[segedunum]

Most people who have criticized Vettel for the bus stop accident seem to forget that he wasn't behind Button but beside him in an overlap.

No, he wasn't.

IMO Vettel simply made an aggressive move to pass Button on the outside into bus stop and had a freak accident that he could not foresee.

Well, that is your opinion and few are going to share it with you. The guy cannot make decisions about whether to go to the inside or the outside, and the jerked move he made to finally go to the outside caused his car to destabilise causing the accident. Webber seems to be rubbing off on him.

The guy is simply not that good and you always see drivers getting defensive when they try and avoid that realisation.

[SiLo]

Hi All
Thought I'd start off on this hot topic!
For me Vettel is still an unknown quantity. He has been fast in other serioes, he IS fast in F1 under the right conditions.

If he is, as advertised the best of the current generation, how come he is far behind not only Hamilton, but also his unloved (by Red Bull) old team mate Mark Webber.

Let's check a few comparative boxes.

• * In his rookie year Hamilton beat Alonso fair & square in the same very fast car.
  * Vettel cannot consistently beat Webber (or other "top" drivers) in the BEST car.
  * I know he can do the "Schumacher slice" through the back markers, but he is consistently unable cleanly to overtake the better drivers\faster cars.
  * Like Schumacher he is inordinately arrogant. Remeber those twirly fingers when he smashed into Webber?

I'm not saying he won't ever be WDC. Indeed he might even win it this year, but in order to match Button and Hamilton in the current generation and Hakkinen, Mansel et al from the past he needs to get a grip! Those guys can\could all go fast, but they also finished the majority of their races without accidents...

He needs to learn that Race craft is more than simply passing the slow guys.

Some very good points there! =D>

I think he is fast but he just cannot overtake that well, and his racecraft is very poor.

[forty-two]

I wonder if he might actually be trying to deliberately get himself a reputation?

I've heard it said that Ayrton Senna had a similar reputation among some of the drivers of his time. This evidently cost him a number of points, but the driver in question (typically a lower ranking driver) would know next time to get out of his way rather than risk being pushed off the road.

If this is Seb's plan, I think perhaps he's not being selective enough in terms of which drivers he should try it with. Button, Webber, Hamilton, Alonso etc. are not guys who will move out of your way, no matter how rash your previous actions might have been.

Whatever the facts, if this indeed is the case, I expect the stewards to be careful to examine his actions when and if a similar situation occurs in the future.

EDIT: Typo

[Tim.Wright]

...IMO Vettel simply made an aggressive move to pass Button on the outside into bus stop and had a freak accident that he could not foresee...

Really, you can't make any other name for that accident apart from 100% misjudgement from the driver. A very simple case of the driver asking too much of the car.

It was not the tracks fault, the weathers fault or Jensons fault.

What do you think the penalty should have been??

Tim

[segedunum]

I've heard it said that Ayrton Senna had a similar reputation among some of the drivers of his time. This evidently cost him a number of points, but the driver in question (typically a lower ranking driver) would know next time to get out of his way rather than risk being pushed off the road.

There's a difference between defending your position and risking a collision and causing a needless collision when you're trying to overtake.

When Senna wanted to overtake he overtook, and you never saw him. When he defended his position he would risk a collision, but that's a psychological stand he took. This is most certainly not what Vettel is doing. It's just incompetence. To swerve to the outside when you realise the inside is closed, when it should have been obvious, and do it violently in a way that you lose control of the car, that's just a kamikaze move.

[xpensive]

I think the brat has taken impression from another German, now driving a Mercedes, who made intimidating other drivers his trademark; "either you back off or we're both gonna crash". Inventing a kinda full-contact racing so to speak.

[mx_tifoso]

Massa was quite the error prone driver even up until 2006 and he's improved a lot. I don't see why Vettel can't go through the same evolution. This might not be a finishing school but with a long career come many a changes and improvements.

[andrew]

Massa benefited from a year as the Ferrari test driver and had basically had lessons from Schumacher to improve is race craft.

Incidently, on the whole "back off or we're going to crash" I heard the same said about Senna. In fact the same person that said that, also went onto say that folk saw him coming and put up less of a fight as they didn't want to get punted off the track.

Anyhoo, I don't see why everyone is complaining. We are getting to see proper racing where accidents happen rather than a procession. I would sooner watch the accident prone real racing than follow the leader any day.

[myurr]

Massa was quite the error prone driver even up until 2006 and he's improved a lot. I don't see why Vettel can't go through the same evolution. This might not be a finishing school but with a long career come many a changes and improvements.

He's certainly improved his own consistency when he's running in clear air but he's not exactly known for his race craft. I like the guy and he has his moments where he can pull off an amazing move, but just as often he'll make a clumsy half attempt or end up just sat behind the car in front. My view of Vettel is that he's quick but will never master race craft to the degree that Hamilton or Alonso have.

[Giblet]

Maybe when you are told constantly for years that you are the next Schumi, you start to believe it when what you really need to do is prove it.

[ringo]

This puts into perspective how good Hamilton really was in 2007.
2010 Vettel can't hold a candle to rookie Hamilton. Vettel fans need to take 5 minutes and think before they even mention his name with Hamilton's in the same sentence.
Just to think people were comparing the 2. Worse yet, wet weather driving skills.
A few drops of water and Vettel loses control crashing into Button!

haha just kidding. He's good, but to me he's no different than Truli or Massa right now. He's just a time attack specialist; really fast guy, but very one dimensional.
Rosberg is a better driver than Vettel, and If i were Christian Horner i would replace Vettel with Rosberg in a heart beat. Rosgerg has the speed, maturity and car control.
The germans are giving all the love to the wrong driver. In fact Sutil would make a good replacement at redbull as well. Vettel needs to go to Force India and learn how to race. Maybe in another year or 2, he'll be worthy enough to be Hamilton's #2.

[raymondu999]

2010 Vettel can't hold a candle to rookie Hamilton. Vettel fans need to take 5 minutes and think before they even mention his name with Hamilton's in the same sentence.

You just did

While I don't agree that Vettel is down at the levels of Massa and Trulli (I feel he is faster and probably slightly better as a racer) he is an excellent qualifier. But then again so is his teammate, no?

[PlatinumZealot]

Vettel has 4 years of F1 experience and he is in the fastest car on the grid - And what does he do with it? CRASH! I doubt he is even as fast as Hamilton. Hamilton out-qualified him in an inferior car so many times.

New driver ratings:

Tier 0 - Hamilton
Tier 1 - .............?
Tier 2 - Kubica, Rosberg, Monaco Webber, Sutil
Tier 3 - Alonso, Vettel, Button, Australia Webber

[DaveKillens]

The only memorable pass Hamilton has to his credit was a few years ago at Interlagos, on the last lap. Or wait, was it at the same venue but a year previous when he attempted to pass Alonso, slid wide, and dropped from 4th to 8th? Or was it the attempted pass of Vettel at the 2008 race in France, where he overshot the chicane on lap one?

Meanwhile I witnessed Rosberg passing Schumacher on the track at Spa.

Without wanting to get too personal that post is just deranged. Hamilton is widely acknowledged as being one of, if not the best, passer of the current generation of F1 stars. He even managed to build this reputation by overtaking the leading stars in his first few races. Vettel isn't anywhere near being in the same league in this one regard.

I believe I understand, but I have arrived at my conclusions in a different manner. Lately I have been forced to noticed the overwhelming Hamilton fanboy crowd who proclaim his talents as almost infinite. One claim is that he is the most exciting driver in Formula One. But obviously, Alonso has him beat in that category. This is just one example of fanboy exaggeration replacing reality.

Lewis Hamilton is definitely a great wheelman, able to hustle his car around the track in vigorous fashion. He is quick and aggressive. But when you assess an ability, you need to examine all aspects, including the successes and failures. Yes, he definitely made some interesting passes in 2007. But he also screwed some up, and sadly, at important times. At the final race of 2007, at Interlagos, when all the chips were on the line, Hamilton was passed by Alonso in Turn 3. Hamilton attempted to re-pass Alonso in turn four, but ran wide, dropping four places to eighth.

That failed pass attempt was one major factor that helped to seal his fate, and allowed Kimi to win the race and WDC. I can only accept the term "Passing God" when a driver is capable of passing when required, and doesn't mess up passes that are critical. Alonso made his pass work, and eventually tied for second in the WDC, while Hamilton's attempt was a failure.

I have no problem comparing Vettel to Hamilton, I find that they have a lot in common. Both are young, brave, quick and aggressive. But Hamilton has had a wonderful support structure for him from day one in his Formula One career. Meanwhile Vettel has changed teams, and has a teammate famous for being harsh and critical of his teammates. These are quite different environments for the drivers, and leads me to the conclusion that Vettel is too aggressive, and this is what is hurting him.