Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[bhallg2k]

If Vettel had the exact same 2010/2011 results in an HRT, would people just stay that HRT is not a bad car?

Yes.

[WilliamsF1]

I meant, how do you evaluate a driver's performance against the field when the field didn't even stand a chance?

I guess you forgot MW was also driving the same car last year. RB7 had an advantage in qualifying but its race pace was always questionable.


Interestingly I am waiting to see where they put him in the BBC 20 greatest driver list. LH is 15, JB is out of top 20, MS will be in the top 3, wonder where they will slot FA and SV

[bhallg2k]

I don't think questionable means what you think it means. I also think you rate Mark Webber a fair bit higher than he really deserves.

The RB7 was a universally acclaimed beast. It had no weaknesses nor did it have an equal. One can draw no other objective conclusion about a car that took 18 poles, 12 wins, 18 podiums and never finished a race lower than 5th.

[WilliamsF1]

SV and RB7 margin is magnified by the inconsistent challenge by the other contenders

This JB and LH season
6 2 4 6 3 3 1 6 Ret Ret 1 3 2 2 1 4 2 3 3
2 8 1 4 2 6 Ret 4 4 1 4 Ret 4 5 5 2 7 1 Ret

[bhallg2k]

I don't know what you're trying to convey with those numbers. Am I supposed to think less or more of the the RB7 and Vettel's season because the competition wasn't good?

[SeijaKessen]

Indeed, where does the influence of the car end and the influence of the driver begin?

I'd say Vettel's body of work is inconclusive at this point given the fact that his career is still very young and he has yet to be challenged with a legitimately bad car.

I think the only way we'll know is if he ever does get a not so great car. When the RB8 wasn't operating quite as well at the beginning of the season, we heard quite a bit out of Vettel's mouth with complaining and whining. Who knows how he will handle a genuinely down season where there is very little improvement to be had.

There's always the possibility Vettel could be similar to Nigel Mansell.

What I mean by that is, when Mansell was given the Williams FW14B --a car so vastly superior to everything else on the grid-- the competition stood no chance of beating that combination.

If you look at his career prior to mid-1991/1992 when he did not have the decisive advantage in a car, while capable of winning, he took himself out of a few WDC chances due to stupidity on his part. Most talented drivers, when given a decisive advantage with a car will make the most out of it. In spite of Mansell's dominance in the 1992 season, when you look at the overall picture of his F1 career, while certainly at times equal to Senna and Prost for a race, he was never truly their equal. If you go back a bit further, Mansell wasn't even better than Elio de Angelis at Lotus. Lotus opted to give de Angelis the Turbo Renault engine at the start of the 1983 season because they did not think too highly of Mansell. If John Player did not step in, Mansell would not even have driven for Lotus in 1984 since Peter Warr wanted Senna but was blocked by the sponsor. You could say he matured, or you could say that he only shone when he had a frontrunning car, which is really what the evidence has always suggested in my opinion.

Vettel may be the next best thing out there on the grid, but in spite of 2 WDC's, I'm not sold on him yet.

[Mr Alcatraz]

I guess it depends on where you rate him. Is he as dominant as last year’s results may indicate to some casual enthusiasts, no?
Is he a gifted racer, yes? Is he the best in the field, not IMO?

[Nando]

He´s definitely in the Trio of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel.

He´s not a fighter in the sense of Hamilton or Alonso which are plain ruthless on track.
but he has shown everyone and shut my mouth that he can race and he can overtake, there´s no question about that.
In 2010 and 2011 he was given a car so dominant that the Championship was his from Race 1.
It was up to him to not lose over 19-20 races.

That´s a totally different kind of championship then let´s say 2007 or 2008 where if you wrecked your car in Qualifying one day it could mean that you ended your run for the Championship even though it´s still theoretically possible to win it.
Having to compete against one person is a whole lot easier then competing against 3 other drivers which are considered the best in the world.

Which leads me to 2011. This is a 2007-2008 year.
If it stays like this we will probably see the championship decided in the last race, in the last corner.
And whoever stands above everyone else this year will have a strong case for claiming to be the best driver in F1.

[SeijaKessen]

He´s definitely in the Trio of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel.

He´s not a fighter in the sense of Hamilton or Alonso which are plain ruthless on track.
but he has shown everyone and shut my mouth that he can race and he can overtake, there´s no question about that.
In 2010 and 2011 he was given a car so dominant that the Championship was his from Race 1.
It was up to him to not lose over 19-20 races.

That´s a totally different kind of championship then let´s say 2007 or 2008 where if you wrecked your car in Qualifying one day it could mean that you ended your run for the Championship even though it´s still theoretically possible to win it.
Having to compete against one person is a whole lot easier then competing against 3 other drivers which are considered the best in the world.

Which leads me to 2011. This is a 2007-2008 year.
If it stays like this we will probably see the championship decided in the last race, in the last corner.
And whoever stands above everyone else this year will have a strong case for claiming to be the best driver in F1.

Alonso is the best driver on the grid by far.

I don't consider Hamilton, or Vettel to even be equals with him.

Think about this, when has Vettel had to contend with a dog of a car like the F2012 was at the start of the season, and then subsequently went on to drive the car beyond what anyone thought it was capable of doing?

It's not a knock on Vettel, it's just a reality.

When the RB8 wasn't looking so hot earlier in the season, he spent plenty of time whining publicly about the car not being great. As soon as the RB8 started getting improved, he suddenly shut up.

Drivers do gripe about the cars, I have no problem with that. But he reminds me too much of Mansell. When you've been gifted good cars, it's kind of difficult to get an idea how good the driver really is especially since there is no real comparison to be made yet. Although as mentioned, in Mansell's case, we do have a baseline for what happened when he wasn't given a frontrunning car.

Here's the thing about 2011, if you gave the RB7 to any other driver on the grid, the likelihood is more than 50% of them would have won the championship with that car. When you have seasons like that, it's less a good way to measure the driver, and more a way to measure how good the car is. Yes he drove the car, and he did drive it well. But what competition did he really have?

Same applies for the Williams FW14B...yes Mansell walked away with the championship in that car, but if you gave the same car to Ayrton Senna that year, do you think Mansell wins that championship? Unlikely.

I'm not asking for Vettel to go drive for HRT just so we can get a baseline, but within the scope of things, if RBR has a down year, I definitely think we'll have a better idea for what Vettel does.

To get an idea of how good a driver/athlete is in any sport, what they do in the face of prolonged adversity is the true test.

[LionKing]

The problem is Vettel actually had driven such a car in 2008:

S.Bourdais:.... 7† Ret 15 Ret Ret Ret 13 17 11 12 18 10 7 18 12 10 13 14
S.Vettle :...... Ret Ret Ret Ret 17 5 8 12 Ret 8 Ret 6 5 1 5 6 9 4

He scored 35 of teams 39 points. The car was 6th in WCC...

RB8 wasn't a dominant car as likes of F2004. There were quite a bit races where McLaren was as fast in the race and sometime faster too.

Hamilton got beaten by Button in 2011; over 2010 and 2011 combined they were pretty much equal (Button just had a bit more points). For me Vettel and Alonso is above Hamilton as drivers. Vettel is probably faster qualifier than Alonso but Alonso has more racecraft and experience than him.

and I also believe Vettel never complains as much as the McLaren duo do. After a bad race we always hear the same thing "we need more downforce", "I had massive understeer".... The car you guys are driving was 0.6 sec faster than anybody as at Spain which is the indicator track.

[SeijaKessen]

I don't really think the STR3 is much of an indication as it was a pretty good car, finishing 6th in the WCC means you put together a capable car for the season. Maybe not the best car, but definitely the best STR car ever produced to date. The only other team he drove for outside of STR and RBR was Sauber, and Sauber finished 2nd overall in the WCC in 2007.

The guy hasn't driven for not so great team like Toleman, Team Lotus or Minardi.

Don't get me wrong, if I had the chance to drive for a top end team, I would take it. But it's a little harder to judge when you've had the luxury of driving good to phenomenal cars from the get go.

[Nando]

He´s definitely in the Trio of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel.

He´s not a fighter in the sense of Hamilton or Alonso which are plain ruthless on track.
but he has shown everyone and shut my mouth that he can race and he can overtake, there´s no question about that.
In 2010 and 2011 he was given a car so dominant that the Championship was his from Race 1.
It was up to him to not lose over 19-20 races.

That´s a totally different kind of championship then let´s say 2007 or 2008 where if you wrecked your car in Qualifying one day it could mean that you ended your run for the Championship even though it´s still theoretically possible to win it.
Having to compete against one person is a whole lot easier then competing against 3 other drivers which are considered the best in the world.

Which leads me to 2011. This is a 2007-2008 year.
If it stays like this we will probably see the championship decided in the last race, in the last corner.
And whoever stands above everyone else this year will have a strong case for claiming to be the best driver in F1.

Alonso is the best driver on the grid by far.

I don't consider Hamilton, or Vettel to even be equals with him.

Think about this, when has Vettel had to contend with a dog of a car like the F2012 was at the start of the season, and then subsequently went on to drive the car beyond what anyone thought it was capable of doing?

It's not a knock on Vettel, it's just a reality.

When the RB8 wasn't looking so hot earlier in the season, he spent plenty of time whining publicly about the car not being great. As soon as the RB8 started getting improved, he suddenly shut up.

Drivers do gripe about the cars, I have no problem with that. But he reminds me too much of Mansell. When you've been gifted good cars, it's kind of difficult to get an idea how good the driver really is especially since there is no real comparison to be made yet. Although as mentioned, in Mansell's case, we do have a baseline for what happened when he wasn't given a frontrunning car.

Here's the thing about 2011, if you gave the RB7 to any other driver on the grid, the likelihood is more than 50% of them would have won the championship with that car. When you have seasons like that, it's less a good way to measure the driver, and more a way to measure how good the car is. Yes he drove the car, and he did drive it well. But what competition did he really have?

Same applies for the Williams FW14B...yes Mansell walked away with the championship in that car, but if you gave the same car to Ayrton Senna that year, do you think Mansell wins that championship? Unlikely.

I'm not asking for Vettel to go drive for HRT just so we can get a baseline, but within the scope of things, if RBR has a down year, I definitely think we'll have a better idea for what Vettel does.

To get an idea of how good a driver/athlete is in any sport, what they do in the face of prolonged adversity is the true test.

Allow me to expand a little.

Alonso to me is the best driver on the grid, no question about it.

But why is this? Well a few things.

1. He´s in his prime
2. He´s in a good place mentally
3. He has become a complete driver over the years.

Remember that Hamilton and Vettel pretty much started at the same time in F1, Alonso was then already a 2-time world champion with 7 more years of F1 experience then they had at that point in time.

This alone puts him further up the road in terms of experience not just how to do a fast lap but how to talk to media, how to create opportunities by being in the right place at the right time, when it counts.

-

But why do i mention Hamilton or Vettel in the same sentence as Alonso?

Well first of all, let´s start with Hamilton.

He is in my opinion a Prodigy in the same sense as Senna in terms of pure speed. I think without a doubt that Hamilton is the quickest driver in the field. The person with the most untapped potential of them all, and i also think the person who will also come out on top when it´s all set and done for the three kings.

He´s been a champion in 99.9% of all classes he´s ever participated in. I think 100% if you exclude karting.

He has records in F3 and GP2 that still stands today, he left a massive mark in those series like no other person on the planet has done.

He comes to Mclaren, gets a 2-time world champion as his teammate, the same guy we now refer to as the best right now.
He ends up actually beating this person in his rookie year in F1. (beating is a correct term but let´s say matched instead as it came down to who had the most 4th places)

What he did was unheard of and will probably never be replicated by another driver ever again.
I still think to this day many people are not giving him the credit he deserved for his first year in F1.
Hell even his first start in F1.

-

Vettel, Vettel, Vettel.....

Fomrula BMW champion and widely considered as the next Schumacher.
Apart from Formula BMW which he dominated he got beaten by Paul di Resta in F3.
Despite that he got a chance to jump in for Kubica i believe in Indianapolis.

Right there and then he showed that he is indeed not just an ordinary driver.
He right out of the box was quickest in FP2 i think and came 6th in the race i believe.

After that he went to Toro Rosso to be nurtured and really learn Formula 1 before getting to Red Bull.
He consistently beat his teammate, he consistently drove really well in races.
He did his job to the fullest in Monza and took advantage of every disadvantage Kubica, Kimi and Hamilton had that day.

One could argue he needed much more time to develop then Hamilton but he has shown that he know is at a similar level to Hamilton and Alonso.

He has shown us everything we doubted him about. Sure he might be an annoying little sh*t sometimes but we can say that about Hamilton and Alonso if we look through their career quickly.


-
So in my opinion there are three driver´s that stand out from the rest and out of those three Alonso is the best, no doubt.
Not because he´s the quickest, not because he´s the smartest but because he´s the most complete driver i´ve seen in a long long time. I would almost say he is THE most complete driver i have ever seen.

Vettel and Hamilton will get there, they just need time as they both are not even in their prime.

[n smikle]

The problem is Vettel actually had driven such a car in 2008:

S.Bourdais:.... 7† Ret 15 Ret Ret Ret 13 17 11 12 18 10 7 18 12 10 13 14
S.Vettle :...... Ret Ret Ret Ret 17 5 8 12 Ret 8 Ret 6 5 1 5 6 9 4

He scored 35 of teams 39 points. The car was 6th in WCC...

RB8 wasn't a dominant car as likes of F2004. There were quite a bit races where McLaren was as fast in the race and sometime faster too.

Hamilton got beaten by Button in 2011; over 2010 and 2011 combined they were pretty much equal (Button just had a bit more points). For me Vettel and Alonso is above Hamilton as drivers. Vettel is probably faster qualifier than Alonso but Alonso has more racecraft and experience than him.

and I also believe Vettel never complains as much as the McLaren duo do. After a bad race we always hear the same thing "we need more downforce", "I had massive understeer".... The car you guys are driving was 0.6 sec faster than anybody as at Spain which is the indicator track.

You obviously don't watch the races. The only reason Button beat Hamilton in 2011 was because Hamilton was crashing into Massa Maldonado Kobayashi etc because he was on the limit... win or nothing. And guess what? He never lost any speed, he still got wins, he still got poles. That year was nothing to say Hamilton is not top draw... Infact it shows how good he is! 2011! Not many drivers have a Horrible year like that and still finish equal with team mate, and same wins. That is how magnaminious the talent of Hamilton is.

Anyway.. Hamilton is already one of the greats. Greatest Rookie, Youngest World Champion in Formula 1 years. etc. Best overtaker etc etc.. Lets talk about Vettel.

Is Vettel overrated? I think yes and no.
He is overated as a qualifier. I think Mark is too close to him when all things are equal. His obviously had a mastery of the Blown diffuser last year. He knew the limits of this "artificial" grip more than Mark did.
This year he is not even outqualifying Old man Marky.

He is not overrated in on track battling. In fact the expectation of his on track battling was never high, but the opposite. He is OK. not great but slightly above average. He chickens out of certain passes where there is risk, but otherwise he makes some intelligent overtakes. And yes Monza I classify as an intelligent overtake and not a Ballsy one. He knew the grip his car had, and he knew Alonso will yield.

As a driver in the race? I think he is NOT overrated. Intelligent driver. I think He is almost as smart as Alonso when it comes to strategy. Alonso and Lewis outshines him by faaaaar in TACTICS though... I hope poeple know the difference between strategy and tactics right? Vettel he knows what he has to do to win. The pacing.. the calmness. He knows the limit of the car.

I think that is his strength. Intelligence and knowing what is possible. He is also aggressive - typical of Ze Germans. But he lacks some bark and bite.

So overall I think he is not overrated.

Speed for Speed.. I would take Hamilton over him.
Hamilton is also intelligent, but more in the ways of battle tactics than strategy. I would take Vettel over him for that.
Alonso is a combination of the two..with no weaknesses. I think Alonso is the best. Hamilton only wins if it is a balls to the wall flat out dog fight of a race... Canada... Nurburgring.... etc.

[raymondu999]

If Vettel had the exact same 2010/2011 results in an HRT, would people just stay that HRT is not a bad car?

Yes.

Even if we were to rewind history to 2011, and keep the cars identical race by race, and Vettel achieved the results he did in an HRT, the car would then be a "good car." That's my point - nowadays there's no way to know where car ends and driver starts... if that makes sense

[NowyszRacing6]

I think the 2011 and 2010 red bull cars were a perfect match for vettel's driving which really helped him out. I'd say the best way to say how good he is is by comparing him to webber, and webber didn't (really) outperform him at all last year. Webber is a good solid driver, so I think its safe to say vettel deserves a lot of the hype. Going back to the car/driver match idea, Alonso and (maybe) Hamilton are better at adapting to different/slow cars. When vettel and the team get the sweet spot with the setup though, he's nearly unstoppable. It'll be interesting to see where he ends up this year, he and webber are a lot closer than they were before