Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[SeijaKessen]

Then don't post.

Besides this originally had to do with Vettel.

Leave it at that.

[Nando]

Ok dad.

[SeijaKessen]

Go to your room son, you're grounded.

[JimClarkFan]

Lol you are both fully grown adults I assume. A gently manly 'agree to disagree' would probably be the best outcome right now. Having read the past few pages I can see where both of you are coming from.

My own personal opinion I will keep to myself though... for the moment.

[mnmracer]

That's when I'll have something more complimentary to say than, "They're great drivers."
Why is that not enough? Why is it so important to immediately hand drivers an exalted status. Relax. Enjoy the show. Let it all unfold.

I look forward to the day you will truly say "they're great drivers". As it stands though, it is always and constantly "they're great drivers BUT". There always has to be a but, you can't just relax and enjoy the show of these great drivers. Always the but. Always the diminishing addendum. Just, for once, leave it at "they're great drivers".

I truly pray you are fair enough to explain this, as I like to understand how people think, and you really have me puzzled on this one (some more than others).

The ability to drive dog cars/cars not setup well to finishes they should not be in

"Not setup well"? Would you please elaborate on that, and with examples please?

Both Vettel and Hamilton cry when things do not go their way...

How is Vettel/Hamilton expressing their dissatisfaction with a car any different than any of your greats expressing their dissatisfaction? Again, please with examples, because I am unaware of the difference.

Which is also indicative of those who have been given everything in life, so they are not quite accustomed of how to deal with adversity when it comes along. Instead they sulk in the corner like a spoiled brat when things don't go their way. Would you like to know what the huge difference was between those two and many other drivers from the past? A lot of the greats had to claw their way to the top. Nothing came easy for them, and to be quite honest, that is what helped to define them as great drivers; adversity.

The only odd one out there is Hamilton, who started in a McLaren, but in starting racing was no more fortunate than Senna. Please help me find the difference:

• Ayrton Senna came from a wealthy family, debuted in a midfield Toleman, before moving to a sub-top Lotus and top McLaren.
• Fernando Alonso came from a poor family yet earned his way into karting with sponsorships, debuted in a back-of-the-field Minardi, before moving to sub-top team Renault, which turned into a top team.
• Sebastian Vettel came from a somewhat middle class family, debuted his career in a back-of-the-mid-field-TR2 before the midfield TR3, and then moved to sub-top to become top Red Bull team.

The ability to pull it together when things are not all roses, is what marks a true champion.

Were things all roses when Vettel was 25 points behind Alonso, with 3 races to go, after yet another technical faillure in 2010?

Anyone can be gracious in victory, being gracious in defeat is another matter.

Do you really consider Senna (crashing into people before Schumi made it fashionable | physically assaulting Irvine because he was 'just a backmarker' that wouldn't get out of his way) and Alonso (braketesting another driver because he felt he was held up in Free Practice | uprooting the entire team and sabotaging a team mate's qualifying because you're not being given number one status | his behavior against Petrov who did nothing wrong in any way) examples of "being gracious in defeat"? What have I missed Vettel and Hamilton doing that was less gracious?

[Nando]

Go to your room son, you're grounded.

Atleast i´m temporary grounded, you seem to be permanently "grounded"

[SeijaKessen]

I agree JimClarkFan.

Personally I just like to look at the whole picture, which is the most important thing when assessing a driver.

We have two drivers that wound up being debated here.

Both are in the middle of their careers, and there are a few rather larger things that go against them --through no fault of their own-- when considering how good they are.

The only thing you can try to do, is to make an educated guess at this point as to where their careers are going.

The two closest similarities I can find based on certain circumstances are Nigel Mansell and Jacques Villeneuve. There's also obvious differences between them as well.

At the end of the day, an educated guess is still a guess. There's a lot of things that at the time they happened, or were happening, we had no idea that they would have the sort of impact they did have.

What if scenarios are fun, and I do love discussing them in general because it's fascinating to consider what the alternative was to certain events. But at some point, there is only what actually happened, and we have to live with that.

At the end of the day, any anointment of Vettel, or Hamilton as all-time "greats" in 2012, is ludicrous on any level.

[SeijaKessen]

Anyway, to everyone else, have fun with this topic.

It's outlived it's usefulness at this point.

[mnmracer]

Anyway, to everyone else, have fun with this topic.

It's outlived it's usefulness at this point.

Please do not tell me you have so little respect for this forum that you are unwilling to elaborate on some of your strong statements.

[mx_tifoso]

Take a breather guys, and let it go. This topic was destined for the basement lock up from the onset, especially since it became too personal.