Christian Horner is complaining about engine disadvantages

[aral]

Every time I hear this guy bleat, he is always putting his opponents down or spinning some wonderful tale. In the aftermath of Turkey he has now raised the "engine equalisation" issue yet again!

Its ridiculous that Mercedes and Ferrari should have to put up with this guys constant harangueing of the FIA.
How about Chassis and aero equalisation Mr Horner?

I just wanted to get other peoples thoughts on this matter.

Full story courtesy of Autosport.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84119

Obviously you dont like Horner, as he is trouncing Mercedes. But Merc were allowed upgrades two years ago and more recently. it was proven that they had made a significant gain in power. Renault abided by the freeze and were left behind. As a result, their engines are more fragile, having to be used harder. However the Renault may also be more drivable, hence they can have an overall advantage over others, especially when they are in a Newey chassis. The only way there can be true equalisation, both in power and drivability, is to go for a spec engine, but NOBODY would want that. If Merc felt they were behind in the power race, they would be screaming for upgrades.
You also want chassis and aero equalisation? Why? Is it because Merc are still two steps behind? It is up to them to raise their game, not for the others to be pegged back.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Gilgen

I dislike Horner as of Bahrain this year yes. Why?

I have given my reasons, not because HE "trounce's Mercedes" as you put it, but because HE muddies his teams reputation.
So I'm perfectly happy for Red Bull to "trounce" whomever as they earned the right. And in all honesty, it is good to see another team join the winning ranks of F1 rather than Mclaren or Ferrari.

And please can you forward me information of Mercedes requesting to make changes to its V8?

I have for Renault here
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/fia-a ... 18289.html

And Ferrari here
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 10718.html

And so far as I can tell the Mercedes-Benz V8 codenamed F0108 X has never been put forward to the FIA for any modifcation to the ENGINE.
Exhaust etc yes, but innards of said engine? I doubt that very much, but im willing to stand corrected if you can show me a source, as stupid me cant find one.

As for WANTING Chassis and aero updates, I meant this with a very large degree of sarcasm. Horner is playing Funnybuggers with PR, trying to deflect heat on his drivers and team to Mercedes who have worked to achieve their success in engines, and not overnight I might add. For Horner to start bandying his rhetoric around like some spoilt child does him no favours. He still actually wants Mercedes power, despite s statement earlier in the day saying how happy he is with Reanult!

Then there was the of foot in mouth comment of Mercedes being "scared" to let Red Bull use their engines! How I laughed.
Yea Mercedes would rather a Renault badge on the side than a three pointed adorning the Red Bulls....wonders never cease to amaze!

[raymondu999]

He wants to swap. Again.
http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6193 ... es-in-2011

[segedunum]

Well, I've commented before on Horner's ridiculous estimates on how much power the Renault engines are down but I do agree with him on this engine homologation. The whole thing has become completely ridiculous. Mercedes have abused it as have Ferrari. How can you gain 12 horsepower from a single change when engines should be fixed? The whole thing is stupid.

[WhiteBlue]

He wants to swap. Again.
http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6193 ... es-in-2011

Absolutely ridiculous. To what engine does he want to switch? Ferrari? It is an empty threat. Ferrari will not give their rivals any advantage that they may have. And honestly they probably still don't have an advantage over Renault all points like fuel consumption considered.

Cosworth? I'd love to see that move because it would rubber stamp the FiA decision to help them back on the grid.

Cosworth is having some degradation issues but that will probably be fixed under the "reliability" clause.

[segedunum]

Absolutely ridiculous. To what engine does he want to switch? Ferrari? It is an empty threat.

It's not (I'm not sre who the 'threat' is to to be honest). Mercedes were actually willing to supply this year but McLaren kept their objection in. Another strong possibility is Volswagen because Red Bull have strong links to them in lower formulas where they supply very good engines, but how likely it is that VW will create a F1 V8 right now when there might well be another change in 2013 I don't know. They would be able to homologate some advantages in though, which shows how ridiculous this whole thing has become.

[aral]

Absolutely ridiculous. To what engine does he want to switch? Ferrari? It is an empty threat.

It's not (I'm not sre who the 'threat' is to to be honest). Mercedes were actually willing to supply this year but McLaren kept their objection in. Another strong possibility is Volswagen because Red Bull have strong links to them in lower formulas where they supply very good engines, but how likely it is that VW will create a F1 V8 right now when there might well be another change in 2013 I don't know. They would be able to homologate some advantages in though, which shows how ridiculous this whole thing has become.

There is absolutely no way in which VW would or could produce an engine. They have publicly stated that thyey won't. and further, that they may only consider such a move after 2013, depending on commercial factors. But I think that Merc could be a possibility, as Merc want to win, even if it as an engine supplier only, and currently the best design team is with RBR.

[andrew]

Last I read, VW were interested. I guess they are waiting to see what engine format will be decided upon.

[xpensive]

I think it would be reasonable to assume that a "VW" F1 engine would be developed by Porsche and badged as an "Audi",
but hardly before the post-2012 rules are set in stone, anything else would be rather stupid.

[ESPImperium]

Personally i think Horner may have something, but on the other hand should take a nice big bite of STFU as well.

Yes the RS27-2010 is down on power to the FO108X by as much as 30Bhp, but on the other hand the fact that he has full facory support for the most fuel efficent engine on the grid, where the likes of Force India and the sister team at Toro Roso dont have the glorys of such support, and dont have such good fuel economy figures is another thing to add up.

From what ive been reading in between the lines is that Horner cannot wait till the new engine comes in 2013, as i think he will switch Red Bull to VW engines, i think Red Bull and Williams will have the luxury of having Audi power. Simply because Red Bull are close to VW in other formula and catogory motorsports, Wiliams because Williams supply F2 with their Chassis and provide Porsche with theri KERS in GT. Thats the reasons that i think they will be with VW then.

Horner will maon and groan untill then, but i think the fact the "cost and relyability" rules have been exploited too much. Ferarri with a 14hp gain with a single component, when Alonso was at Renault said that was dodgy, and how it should be arround 15-20hp over a season. Now he is at Ferarri, that comment is maybes not as valid now.

I think that the cost and relyability issues should all be delt with more severly, id make it that a the change of a part for cost reasons should be at minimum 50% less that the current component cost, and if its a relyability issue, that should be belt with by the engine being managed diffrently. If a part is too fragile, why was it used in the first place??? Make the more powwerful engined be de-tuned that way, relyability should be punished that way, make the designers think about roubustness and not about how much power they can deliver.

All of those ideas are fine, untill you think about how they can be policed. And thats where i feel that each engine should be used in a concurrent manner, no Friday engines. And all engines are all to be within 1% of the benchmark engine every year, so each engine manufacturer would have to submit an engine for dyno testing to the FIA at the start of each year, and the figures openly published. So if the Renault was down, they would be allowed to have 14 days to equalise, and vice versa to the Mercedes, Cosworth and Ferarri blocks that currently occupy the F1 grid. Not to mention the fact the FIA has the power to do a form of engine equalisation thrugh the ECU, but doesnt.

I think there is better ways the engine rules could have been done, this way suppoerting Christian Horners argument, but he should shut up as he has his cars as the best out there. Everything has its weakness, just the engine of the Red Bull is its "weakness".

Im happy to listen to Horner talk about how good they are, and how Vettel and Webber are arguably the best all-round team in the paddock, and how that that they will have a poor race soon. Engine power he should just shut up about.

[WhiteBlue]

VW have declared that they will not join F1 with their own team. They will only join as an engine maker. They will only supply engines when the new engine formula at 2013 will apply. They also require the 2013 engines to be of the GRE format. If all these conditions are met I guess they would be happy to supply a range of teams depending of the commercial conditions they would have to meet.

Regarding Red Bull possibly switching to Merc power next year I would say that chance is almost zero. It would only happen if McLaren terminate their custom Merc supply and have someone manufacture their own F1 engine. Merc currently supplies three teams including their own and they are not allowed to supply another by the valid FiA sporting rules.

[ESPImperium]

VW have declared that they will not join F1 with their own team. They will only join as an engine maker. They will only supply engines when the new engine formula at 2013 will apply. They also require the 2013 engines to be of the GRE format. If all these conditions are met I guess they would be happy to supply a range of teams depending of the commercial conditions they would have to meet.

Regarding Red Bull possibly switching to Merc power next year I would say that chance is almost zero. It would only happen if McLaren terminate their custom Merc supply and have someone manufacture their own F1 engine. Merc currently supplies three teams including their own and they are not allowed to supply another by the valid FiA sporting rules.

Thats more or less what my thoughts are as well. Altho ill leave my GRE thoughts to another thread.

If Red Bull are to switch power, they would be more inclined to do a swap with Toro Rosso, putting Renault power to STR.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

GRE guys?

[ESPImperium]

Global Race Engine. Basically the world engine that Max Mosley was on about.

[xpensive]

...

If Red Bull are to switch power, they would be more inclined to do a swap with Toro Rosso, putting Renault power to STR.

I don't think Ferrari would care for a Newey-designed Red Bull on the grid with their engine, they seem to prefer no-threat customers.