Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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The simplest explanation for all of this is that Button ignored team strategy. I would not use the word team orders, because that would involve orchestrating a change of position. Team orders usually lead to a restructuring of the positioning of the drivers, by slowing the leading driver. On the other hand it could be preventing an inevitable change of position by slowing the gaining driver.

In order for it to be team orders in this situation, Button would have to inevitably overtake Hamilton, and the team would have to hold him back by telling a target lap. There is no evidence to suggest Button had more fuel or that his tyres were better and he was running so much faster that He would pass lewis.
In fact looking at how Lewis turned on the pace after he retook the position, i am inclined to believe he had more fuel. I have not seen this mentioned, but believe or not, following behind the redbulls as well would also save fuel. The dirty air wont save the tyres, but it reduces drag which means fuel would be saved.

In this case, Button was nowhere near catching Hamilton had it not been for the save fuel command. Some are made to believe Button would eventually get Hamilton, no evidence there.
If there was no save fuel conversation then the race would have finished with no drama, Hamilton driving away from Button and Button trying to keep up.

The idea that Hamilton made a mistake is just as unfounded as the idea that Button was not told a target time.

He was told according to Goss, and indications are that he ignored. But that is all good still, Button had all rights to have a go, as dishonorable as it is.

He noticed Hamilton was closing in on a 21 point deficit, and was gaining large chunks of points every race. He desperately wanted to maintain a gap to Hamilton because going by the trends Hamilton will surpass him on points and then move off into the distance forcing the team to support the boss for the WDC.
Button was thinking of the big picture when he made that sneaky move. It was all worth it to him, looking on the scheme of things.

Any how you look at it, mis-communication (yeah, right) or Button took things into his own hands (as his fans were proud of in races like Australia, Malaysia and china; so i am more inclined to believe this one) he consciously made a decision to take advantage of what seems to be a slowing hamilton, which is not something he sees every race and it would be easy pickings to add a 7 point gap.

So yes he was justified, but it was dishonorable and says something about his willingness to play the team game.

I will stay away from the argument that the team slowed Lewis for button to pass him, so he would lead the championship and the team would lead the championship. It's perfectly logical looking at the standings, but it's a very big risk sticking the move with so many laps left, and it would indicate Whitmarsh would be favouring Button this early in the season.
For Sure!!

feynman
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Joined: 02 Mar 2010, 20:36

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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In the interests of assisting those indulging in speculation, and the general promotion of evidence-based commenting, I have uploaded the Hamilton onboard for the laps in question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuKJhnBA64E

Anyone willing to indicate the timecode of a Hamilton mistake?

I am getting good at avoiding FOM takedowns, but can't offer any guarantees, a bit like Lewis's race-engineer apparently, so don't hang about.

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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Nice video.
What i notice is that there is a difference in agression between the 2 cars. There were no mistakes, and Button actually came beside him 1:50 in the video, in turn 10!
Clear power difference. Button was going all out!
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timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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n smikle wrote:Maybe Hamilton put the pace down by 0.5 seconds, then the overtake cost 1 second.
And what about another 1 second?
Remember, at lap 48 Hamilton posted 1:33.051 and Button 1:31.918.

2feynman thanks for that!
Without airbox view it's hard to tell what went wrong, but one can easily see that the moment Button caught Hamilton is around 1:35 in the video, just through turn 8.
It doesn't seem he made a mistake, so I guess there can be two different things -- first, Hamilton misunderstood pit-board and thought he had to keep much slower pace than he was told, or, at that moment he was on the radio that moment and had to lift a bit to hear things.

bcoxa
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Joined: 11 Aug 2009, 09:59

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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Listen to the engine note on the exit of turn 8 over the few laps covered by that video.

The lap he is caught on the pitch is very different to the one before, did he change up to early?
I'm not an engineer, just an experiment.

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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bcoxa wrote:Listen to the engine note around turns 9 and 10 over the few laps covered by that video.

The lap he is caught on the pitch is very different to the one before, did he change up to early?
Yes, it sounds like he was shifting early.

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ringo
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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I agree Hamilton's car seemed a bit slow, maybe on his fuel mix settings. But this was all because he trusted the team. We ourselves can see Button closing in, as Lewis mentioned.
I think he wanted to react, but the team was adamant that Button would not pass, contrary to how hard Button was driving back there. So hard that he came beside Lewis in turn 10 i think.
So you have one driver restricted, and one going full steam. Doesn't seem fair at all.
The slow 1:33 lap, was something the team should have mentioned to him. If i remember correctly in the China race, the team were constantly updating Button on Hamilton's time gap, and also guiding him to keep him ahead.
Why didn't we see that in this race?
If lewis was above the target time in one sector, why didn't they urge him to speed up, and why didn't they confirm Button was gaining?

One other thing i remember about China was that hints were given to Hamilton to stop his pursuit of Button. He was told his tyres were going or something, i can't remember. But he was definitely told to cool off the chase. He complied and simply followed Button around.
There is a double standard in the team.
For Sure!!

Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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Oh dear. I worry about posts that include words in CAPITALS and also charge in to attack a fellow member for their typing rather than have a discussion.

Turkey was fixed by Ron Dennis on the grassy knoll and Flavio Briatore in a depository, Vettel is on a submarine to Uraguay, and Webber lives in a cave in the Yemen.

While we're on the subject of establishing the FACTS in F1. Has anyone else noticed that the flags behind the podium DO NOT flutter ??? Why is that? They must be on the moon, or on a sound stage in Arizona. FACT.

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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But why he gained pace afterwards?

And you can see that Button came closer after a turn 8, so it was not like Hamilton was slow the whole previous sector or something.
My guess he was on the radio that moment.

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doopie2you
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Joined: 26 Feb 2010, 13:42
Location: Zuid-Holland

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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feynman wrote:In the interests of assisting those indulging in speculation, and the general promotion of evidence-based commenting, I have uploaded the Hamilton onboard for the laps in question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuKJhnBA64E

Anyone willing to indicate the timecode of a Hamilton mistake?

I am getting good at avoiding FOM takedowns, but can't offer any guarantees, a bit like Lewis's race-engineer apparently, so don't hang about.

Wooh awesome video, thanks for uploading! Provies the point that there were no BIG mistakes from Hamilton. Button just didn't listen en Hamilton did! What Button did was not very smart, if he REALLY had low fuel then that would have cost him his race!

BTW, could you tell me where you got that onboard video from? Maybe PM me if you won't tell it here?
What does IDK means?? (someone) i dont know (other dude) OMG no one knows

f1creative
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Joined: 04 Jun 2010, 16:17

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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I dont think anyone can judge on these situations unless your a driver listening to your race engineer. It could of been the case that Hamilton backed off a bit too much and Jenson went to grab the win. However Hamilton is never going to let that happen. I think with Lewi's there's a lot aboput pride, hence the reason he never let Button have an easy time both by letting jenson passed and then lewis taking the number one spot again. Hamiltons driving style is incredible and very unique we have seen it a few times this season the way hamilton goes deep and cuts underneath on the inside, he'll do anything to pass someone hes an incredible driver however in this situation its all confonfusing as know one other than race engineers really knows whats going on. We get all the commentry, in car radios etc etc but we would never get the full story. It was the same with vettel and webber..webber was actually going into fuel saving mode and backing off a touch when vettel jumped on him. It's always going to be in the shade for us as viewers..

bcoxa
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Joined: 11 Aug 2009, 09:59

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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timbo wrote:But why he gained pace afterwards?

And you can see that Button came closer after a turn 8, so it was not like Hamilton was slow the whole previous sector or something.
My guess he was on the radio that moment.
From what I hear he changes up mid exit on the lap he's caught compared to the one before which is some way down the straight.

This maybe part of his fuel saving strategy.

Does anyone know how much fuel either driver needed to save?
I'm not an engineer, just an experiment.

dannyteasdale
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Joined: 31 May 2010, 09:19
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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Wow - I didnt realise how much he actually was short shifting on that lap.
Very fuel conserve mode.
I dont know what to think of this - I'm a Mclaren fan. Not a particular driver fan.
But Hamilton is a real talent, in my own opinion, more so than Jenson.
So right now I could say 'What the F was Button doing?' and jump to Hamiltons defense, but I wont.
Theres something not quite right about this but the thing is, We will never know what.
Im fascinated, just like the rest of us, but I just hope they respect each other enough and have sorted this before Canada.

timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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bcoxa wrote:
timbo wrote:But why he gained pace afterwards?

And you can see that Button came closer after a turn 8, so it was not like Hamilton was slow the whole previous sector or something.
My guess he was on the radio that moment.
From what I hear he changes up mid exit on the lap he's caught compared to the one before which is some way down the straight.

This maybe part of his fuel saving strategy.

Does anyone know how much fuel either driver needed to save?
It can be seen from their laps 49-58 that there's not much difference between them and that their pace was not much slower than mid-race.
Anyway, Hamilton lost about 1 second to Button on that lap alone, and that didn't happen before or after.

Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Hamilton.Button incident. The Truth!

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bcoxa wrote:Does anyone know how much fuel either driver needed to save?
I suspect the fuel order was conveying a team order to stop racing. It is most likely that they had very similar amounts of fuel, and neither was in danger of running out of fuel. After all both cars had an empty track ahead, and it is usual at that stage of the race to focus on preserving the car, and that in turn saves fuel.