Mark Webber's shoulder...

[Giblet]

So he says it had no bearing on his driving, and you say it does. Check. You fully understand the meaning of the word excuse, but still say he used it as one. Check.

That's reverse phsychology for you Giblet. Look it up.

All I am getting at is he says one thing, but you automatically disregard what he says and insert your own beliefs instead.

No. When somebody says something they say it for a reason, especially in Formula 1, and Mark Webber and PR people know exactly how something that is said will be perceived. You don't even need to be a PR person. It's as obvious a piece of reverse psychology as you'll get.

I seem to remember you having trouble with this whole concept in the past. What people say isn't quite what they mean in the world of PR and media. I can see that's coming as quite a shock to your logic circuits.

Down boy.

I understand what reverse psychology is, doesn't mean that I have to accept that you think he is using it.

You have been wrong in the past about things you were 100% sure on, as have I. Nobody can 'know' for sure, and I am one of those people.

I see it exactly has Webber has stated it:

"I didn't sit down after the season had finished with hindsight goggles on and pick and choose what went into it. We did it at the time after each race. It [the injury] is something that happened to me, it was part of my journey this season, so that's why it's in there."

[andrew]

As I have mentioned previously, it is the timing that is preventing me from giving Webber the benefit of the doubt.

[Giblet]

The timing was that he wrote this immediately after the race. That timing?

That's what I don't understand about your logic. At the time it was written, he was the championship leader, so how the heck could it have been an excuse?

[strad]

Look..He says..."Oh it had no imact" ,,,and it probably didn't...but the only reason to even mention it,,,especially if you're going to say it didn't have an effect,,is to illicit sympathy and imply that in spite of what you say,,,you were affected.
The only reason to say ANYTHING is to make an excuse even if indirectly....It's something a kid would do actually....
Now if he had been in real pain and had to have his mechanics lift him into the car..ala Johnny Herbert,,,or Nuvolari, then it would be worth mentioning.
'BTW....I'd sure like to know what painkiller he was injected with, that wasn't narcotic and therefore ok to drive on.
Percodan,,,Whoa! That would be a big NO NO..anything of real painkilling quality would have been illegal to let him drive on, so the only other explaination is that it was just anti-inflamitory drugs..ibuprofen?? some other NSAID?
Not exactly an indication of much pain.

[Giblet]

My understanding in the book is that he wrote about everything, all year, as it happened. That is the logic that I am using to determine it wasn't an excuse. If he wrote it at the time it happened, what was he excusing? Leading the WDC? Leading his teammate?

This shoulder injury falls under the category of everything AFAIK.

[andrew]

The reupted shoulder injury was not disclosed until after the championship was lost. That's why it appears to be an excuse. The timing is impecible.

[segedunum]

I understand what reverse psychology is, doesn't mean that I have to accept that you think he is using it.

Then don't accept it. Fine. I've argued why it looks the way it does.

However, you're now trying to dig through what he's said in order to try and say that he's been writing this stuff after every race and so therefore can't be an excuse after the fact. How he's wrote this book is totally irrelevant and we only have what he says to go on. What we do know is that this 'injury' has only been talked about now, after the championship was lost. It looks like what it is - an excuse that justifies his loss to everyone, and most importantly, himself.

He's by no means the only driver to have done this at all, but it's a big characteristic of Mark Webber that he mouths off at times when he believes he's struggling. This incident is by no means an exception.

Nobody can 'know' for sure, and I am one of those people.

Great for you, but if it can be interpreted as an excuse in this case then that's the way it looks I'm afraid. Saying "Oh, we don't know it was an excuse because Mark hasn't told us it was an excuse so it can't be" is a pretty weak argument here.

[Giblet]

Again, I am going on what he said, when the book was written, and how long it takes to publish a book. You are going on your speculation.

He hasn't made any other excuses that I can think of, so why would I think he is making them now?

See if I write a daily journal, and later on something in it rings true to detractors, thats their problem, not mine, and that seems to be what Webber is saying about it.

Regardless, nobody knows for sure, and both sides have valid reasons for their opinions, so we can leave it at that before you start slinging personal comments again for no reason.

[djos]

^^^^

Well said giblet, the Haters just gonna keep hating tho, it's all they know!

[segedunum]

Alas, people are going on what he's said about what he means by this when there is no reason to read it as true at face value in any shape or form. Fact is, the injury has only come to light after the fact. That really is all we have to go on. Speculation on when the book was written is irrelevant. It could have been written last week with a one nighter and a can of Red Bull.

When you open your mouth what you say makes a situation look how it sounds. Fact is, it can be used to justify his title loss. Beyond that what we think he meant by releasing this now is irrelevant.

Some people just seem to have some difficulty accepting this as what it is, which is what happens when people end up saying "Oh it's all an opinion and nobody knows" as well as bringing up the 'personal' card.

[Giblet]

You are just more verbosely giving your opinion as fact.

There is also no reason to think he is lying.

You brought up the personal card, as you got personal and attacked my reasoning abilities when it was uncalled for and unwarranted. I merely called you on it, and didn't reciprocate. While I find your logic flawed, I never once, and will not, assume you are flawed.

[segedunum]

There is no reason whatsoever to take what he says he meant by this at face value. You don't simply believe everything someone says without something to back it up. If somebody says something and it gives them an excuse then you'd better have something to back that up that it isn't one other than "Really guys, it isn't an excuse! Trust me I'm an Aussie and I'm honest!". It's basic 101 when people talk.

Opinion as fact? Nope. Assuming that what Mark Webber says is true is an opinion people are certainly entitled to. However, there is no doubting that this revelation gives Mark Webber an excuse. He's done nothing to dissuade us that it isn't one other than his say-so. You cannot say or do something and then simply attempt to take back what you like. On balance we know where the dice fall here.

[raymondu999]

While both of you bring up valid, good points, Giblet, how do you know that the part of the broken shoulder in particular was written in his rough draft?

[Formula None]

Great thread, guys.

[Intego]

There is no reason whatsoever to take what he says he meant by this at face value. You don't simply believe everything someone says without something to back it up. If somebody says something and it gives them an excuse then you'd better have something to back that up that it isn't one other than "Really guys, it isn't an excuse! Trust me I'm an Aussie and I'm honest!". It's basic 101 when people talk.

Hm, let me see, if I get your thoughts right: You say, it was an excuse. I try to back it up, but I cannot find any proof for that. So there must be another reason for you to say that. Do you discredit Webber baselessly so that everyone must be aware that Webber is a honest reliable person? Great strategy!
What do you do when your wife says "I love you"? Does she have to prove it? When did the mistrust enter your world?

He's done nothing to dissuade us that it isn't one other than his say-so.

What do you await?

Hi guys. Here are radiographs showing my shoulder and a medical certificate that the injury didn't affect my driving. See Ya!

If Mark Webber was someone who needs excuses for not being successful, he wouldn't have said "Totally my mistake" after Korean GP and after Abu Dhabi: "I tried my absolute hardest and we did everything we could, but in the end it wasn't enough" and "I've done everything I can to get those (wins) and in the end I haven't got them because I haven't deserved them. Simple as that." and so on ...

You just express your opinion here (and you have every right to), but please do not relabel your opinion with fact. You do the same in the MGP inauguration thread and elsewhere. It hinders funded discussion.