Ferrari LaFerrari

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johnsonwax
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Joined: 21 Apr 2014, 21:46

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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How well the P1 manages and applies the ERS will depend entirely on software. I would expect McLaren to have the edge on Ferrari on this, but there's really no way of knowing until someone give a head-head test.

But these cars have more torque and HP than they can transfer to the road at any lowish-speed. Nordschleife has a lot of low/medium speed corners. That means that downforce/handling probably wins over HP. That's why the GT-R does so well there. I'd expect the P1 to win out, though it's curious that neither have released their times. My guess is that they're very close and each want to be clearly faster.

bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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kooleracer wrote:What makes them more exciting then the tech that is beinig used in F1 right now?

I find MGU-H, brake by wire, and 1.6 V6 turbo producing more then 750HP and all that with less fuel more exciting the be honest. The leap in technology that F1 has taken has been under-appreciated in my eyes.
What makes LaFerrari, P1, and the 918 Spyder more exciting than F1 is that each represents an entirely different approach to a single question: what is the ultimate supercar? Imagine a Formula One in which teams were allowed to put forth their unique vision about what constitutes the ultimate F1 car. (It used to be like that.)

LaFerrari has regenerative braking that, by all accounts, retains the feel of traditional braking - no small feat - and an innovative electronic differential that harvests energy to provide torque vectoring, each a crucial component that allows the car to have 950bhp on tap at all times in package that weighs a paltry 1,255kg.

The P1 has massive turbos, which enables an incredible 28mpg from a 727bhp ICE, and an electric motor integrated into the drivetrain so well that there's no turbo lag and allows the driver to have up to 904bhp at his command to go along with active aerodynamics that produce an absurd 1,320lbs of peak downforce.

Porsche's 918 Spyder somehow manages 887bhp at a ludicrous 71mpg and AWD traction for a blistering 0-60 time of 2.6s.

The technology employed in each of these cars makes a mockery of anything in F1 these days.

Cold Fussion
93
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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bhall wrote:
kooleracer wrote:What makes them more exciting then the tech that is beinig used in F1 right now?

I find MGU-H, brake by wire, and 1.6 V6 turbo producing more then 750HP and all that with less fuel more exciting the be honest. The leap in technology that F1 has taken has been under-appreciated in my eyes.
What makes LaFerrari, P1, and the 918 Spyder more exciting than F1 is that each represents an entirely different approach to a single question: what is the ultimate supercar? Imagine a Formula One in which teams were allowed to put forth their unique vision about what constitutes the ultimate F1 car. (It used to be like that.)

LaFerrari has regenerative braking that, by all accounts, retains the feel of traditional braking - no small feat - and an innovative electronic differential that harvests energy to provide torque vectoring, each a crucial component that allows the car to have 950bhp on tap at all times in package that weighs a paltry 1,255kg.

The P1 has massive turbos, which enables an incredible 28mpg from a 727bhp ICE, and an electric motor integrated into the drivetrain so well that there's no turbo lag and allows the driver to have up to 904bhp at his command to go along with active aerodynamics that produce an absurd 1,320lbs of peak downforce.

Porsche's 918 Spyder somehow manages 887bhp at a ludicrous 71mpg and AWD traction for a blistering 0-60 time of 2.6s.

The technology employed in each of these cars makes a mockery of anything in F1 these days.
The P1 is not that fundamentally different to a Gumpert Apollo with an electric boost attached to it. Sure the calibration for seamlessly combining the electric motor with the turbo characteristics is impressive, but it's not like they're doing something outrageously amazing. The aerodynamics of the P1 are more impressive then it's hybrid technology IMO. The 918 LaFerrari are far more interesting cars in terms of the drivetrain, but again, all they're really doing is regenerative breaking which has be done before. The torque vectoring harvesting differential is quite cool though, and on the braking feel, I'm always a little bit skeptical of Ferrari reviews knowing their previous review practices. As for the 918's claimed fuel economy, how is that measured? I don't know the cycle they go through at all, but I can't imagine I could always get 71 mpg If I wanted to, as I don't imagine the pottering around regenerative braking will be able to always have electric energy stored up.

To my mind, the exhaust harvesting in F1 is more interesting.

Richard
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Joined: 15 Apr 2009, 14:41
Location: UK

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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Is that 950 bhp the max power, ie ICE plus electric boost? If so it can not be available at all times because the total energy used cannot be greater than the energy input, ie the ICE alone.

So perhaps it might be more valid to say the full 950 is available as much as it is needed?

bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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Cold Fussion wrote:[...]

To my mind, the exhaust harvesting in F1 is more interesting.
Fair enough. We're all snowflakes.
richard_leeds wrote:[...]

So perhaps it might be more valid to say the full 950 is available as much as it is needed?
It's my understanding that WOT for LaFerrari always equals maximum torque demand from both the ICE and the electric motor, which translates to power up to 950bhp. So, yeah.

That's different from the P1 in which power delivery at WOT varies depending upon what mode the car is in. Its default hybrid mode only uses the electric motor to "fill in" as the turbines spool up for the ICE, which ultimately defines the maximum power available in that setting.

The options available with the P1 are probably more realistic, because you can't possibly use 950bhp all the time.

kooleracer
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Joined: 05 Jan 2012, 16:07

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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bhall wrote:
kooleracer wrote:What makes them more exciting then the tech that is beinig used in F1 right now?

I find MGU-H, brake by wire, and 1.6 V6 turbo producing more then 750HP and all that with less fuel more exciting the be honest. The leap in technology that F1 has taken has been under-appreciated in my eyes.
What makes LaFerrari, P1, and the 918 Spyder more exciting than F1 is that each represents an entirely different approach to a single question: what is the ultimate supercar? Imagine a Formula One in which teams were allowed to put forth their unique vision about what constitutes the ultimate F1 car. (It used to be like that.)

LaFerrari has regenerative braking that, by all accounts, retains the feel of traditional braking - no small feat - and an innovative electronic differential that harvests energy to provide torque vectoring, each a crucial component that allows the car to have 950bhp on tap at all times in package that weighs a paltry 1,255kg.

The P1 has massive turbos, which enables an incredible 28mpg from a 727bhp ICE, and an electric motor integrated into the drivetrain so well that there's no turbo lag and allows the driver to have up to 904bhp at his command to go along with active aerodynamics that produce an absurd 1,320lbs of peak downforce.

Porsche's 918 Spyder somehow manages 887bhp at a ludicrous 71mpg and AWD traction for a blistering 0-60 time of 2.6s.

The technology employed in each of these cars makes a mockery of anything in F1 these days.
I thought you meant that the road cars ICE + E-engines solution are more exciting then F1's solution. But you meant how all those different companies came up with different solutions. F1 is one spec on paper, but because of the secrecy the public will never know the different roads Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault took. Mercedes split turbo solution is only first innovation we have seen, but i''m pretty sure that all 3 manufactures have also taken different roads. F1 is not so standard as the rules suggest, it's not as open as WEC which off-course is a shame.
Irvine:"If you don't have a good car you can't win it, unless you are Michael or Senna. Lots of guys won in Adrian Newey's cars, big deal. Adrian is the real genius out there, there is Senna, there is Michael and there is Newey.They were the three great talents."


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Powerslide
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Joined: 12 Feb 2006, 08:19
Location: Land Below The Wind

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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bhall wrote: The P1 has massive turbos, which enables an incredible 28mpg from a 727bhp ICE, and an electric motor integrated into the drivetrain so well that there's no turbo lag and allows the driver to have up to 904bhp at his command


Thats the thing, the P1 is turbocharged and among the three, it will falter the most when it comes drop in powerband or turbo lag, spool up lag. One would think that among the three it would be the P1 that would be begging the most for regenerative braking to hide its turbo lag with torque fill. After say a full blown lap on race mode of any circuit then the battery would be off and the rest of the laps would not be so entertaining with turbo lag, only hoping that twin clutch gearbox can play its part to minimize it. The thing is, on track, drivers tend to late brake or brake as hard as the possibly can, that means really short time on the brake pedal. All that energy is wasted on the P1 and its overrun or off throttle recharge time gets shorter and short as the laps get hotter and hotter having no time to recharge the batteries. This means, the harder pushed, the less recharge time and the quicker the battery runs dry. The opposite can be said of La Ferrari and 918 Spyder.
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the EDGE
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Joined: 13 Feb 2012, 18:31
Location: Bedfordshire ENGLAND

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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Powerslide wrote:
bhall wrote: The P1 has massive turbos, which enables an incredible 28mpg from a 727bhp ICE, and an electric motor integrated into the drivetrain so well that there's no turbo lag and allows the driver to have up to 904bhp at his command


Thats the thing, the P1 is turbocharged and among the three, it will falter the most when it comes drop in powerband or turbo lag, spool up lag. One would think that among the three it would be the P1 that would be begging the most for regenerative braking to hide its turbo lag with torque fill. After say a full blown lap on race mode of any circuit then the battery would be off and the rest of the laps would not be so entertaining with turbo lag, only hoping that twin clutch gearbox can play its part to minimize it. The thing is, on track, drivers tend to late brake or brake as hard as the possibly can, that means really short time on the brake pedal. All that energy is wasted on the P1 and its overrun or off throttle recharge time gets shorter and short as the laps get hotter and hotter having no time to recharge the batteries. This means, the harder pushed, the less recharge time and the quicker the battery runs dry. The opposite can be said of La Ferrari and 918 Spyder.
I see what your saying but I have seen many reviews from people driving the P1 and not one of them has complained about the battery running out of Juice. It may not use brake regeneration but it does charge its self as you lift off the throttle to use the brake with the engine acting as a 700+hp generator. I have no idea who's system (porsche/ferrari/mclaren) provides the bigger charge but it would be interesting to find out, likewise I would like to know on an average race track how much energy the 3 cars use compared to how much can be recovered and also whether they would run out of electricity or fuel first

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Powerslide
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Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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the EDGE wrote: It may not use brake regeneration but it does charge its self as you lift off the throttle to use the brake with the engine acting as a 700+hp generator. I have no idea who's system (porsche/ferrari/mclaren) provides the bigger charge but it would be interesting to find out, likewise I would like to know on an average race track how much energy the 3 cars use compared to how much can be recovered and also whether they would run out of electricity or fuel first
If thats the case, using its engine to charge during braking, with all that power, then I don't see any problems with battery on the P1 for a whole race let alone a lap. It would contradict having economical KERS though but I find, that would be quite a good idea to tackle possible turbo lag. They should or would have that as one of their set up if they have not, in persuit for that driving experience of course which is what these cars are all about. The biggest contributor to regenerative brake, brake assisted by electric motor and recharge, would be the Porsche. It is the heaviest and has the front wheels(highest grip during braking) and two motors to recharge whereas the La ferrari just do with its single motor mounted to the rear wheels and P1 too. Some more, the Porsche is by far the heaviest. It is easily the most hybrid of the three, if there were a measurement to hybrid.
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Cold Fussion
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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I don't think it does that, because you would have to decouple the engine from the drivetrain to generate electricity, and then you would have to very quickly recouple it when power is requested. If the engine were generating at 7000 rpm while breaking, and say it would be at 3000 rpm when the driver re-applies the accelerator, then after the driver pressed the accelerator, the engine would have to stop generating, decelerate down to the required rpm and then be reconnected to the drive train, in the process generating a massive amount of throttle lag. furthermore, such generating would easily be audible in the video reviews, and surely the reviewers would have commented on the engine constantly spinning despite being on the break.

bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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The ICE in the P1 can operate as a generator to charge the battery, but such use is limited to E-mode in which the ICE is unneeded for propulsion. I've read that it can be done when the car is stationary, too. In either case, it takes about ten minutes to fully charge the battery, which is also true for when the car is plugged into an external source. Otherwise, the car only harvests "surplus" energy from the ICE during deceleration.

Given the system's rapid charge times, I think it's probably safe to assume it won't run out of juice when it's in IPAS (hybrid) mode, because the only default actions in that setting are combating turbo lag with "torque-fill," which doesn't seem particularly taxing in the grand scheme of things, and harvesting energy off-throttle. But, that also means the car's power output is largely defined by the ICE, as it's the only figure sustainable at all times: 727bhp.

To realize 904bhp requires the car to be in "Boost" mode and for the driver to press a button. That's what quickly depletes battery power and leaves the P1 wanting in comparison to LaFerrari.

Cold Fussion
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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bhall wrote:The ICE in the P1 can operate as a generator to charge the battery, but such use is limited to E-mode in which the ICE is unneeded for propulsion. I've read that it can be done when the car is stationary, too. In either case, it takes about ten minutes to fully charge the battery, which is also true for when the car is plugged into an external source. Otherwise, the car only harvests "surplus" energy from the ICE during deceleration.

Given the system's rapid charge times, I think it's probably safe to assume it won't run out of juice when it's in IPAS (hybrid) mode, because the only default actions in that setting are combating turbo lag with "torque-fill," which doesn't seem particularly taxing in the grand scheme of things, and harvesting energy off-throttle. But, that also means the car's power output is largely defined by the ICE, as it's the only figure sustainable at all times: 727bhp.

To realize 904bhp requires the car to be in "Boost" mode and for the driver to press a button. That's what quickly depletes battery power and leaves the P1 wanting in comparison to LaFerrari.
And compared to the 918, which should have 880 hp pretty much full time as well.

Sevach
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Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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The 918 front motor disengages at speeds above 170 KM/H (give or take...) so it doesn't have 887 full time either.

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ringo
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Re: Ferrari LaFerrari

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The downforce figures of the P1 may be irrelevant if the tyres can't handle it.

We need to see what figures both cars make at the same speed. Any how I feel the Ferrari is the faster car.
I think it looks better, sounds better, has more emotion, better interior and it's lighter.

I like the Porsche for the interior, it doesn't have to be the fastest one because it seems to be the better road car out of the three.

The P1 is somewhere in the middle for me. It looks nice, but it's just too clinical and economically designed Especially with the engine choice.
For Sure!!

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