swashplate engines

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tuj
tuj
15
Joined: 15 Jun 2007, 15:50

swashplate engines

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After doing some recent reading on torpedoes, I came across this engine design. I was really surprised reading about some of the engines' power output in early iterations along with relatively low weight. I started thinking that the swashplate engine has some real advantages, namely that its a barrel-shaped design generally which would make for good aerodynamics in a racecar.

I have read that the MK48 torpedo develops 500hp, not sure how heavy it is, but that sounds pretty good. I know it runs on OTTO fuel, so that's a little different than petrol, but still seems like an interesting design. I have heard that these engines were installed in airplanes as well, so they must have been at least somewhat reliable.

What are the draw-backs of the swashplate engine? I have seen designs that allow for variable compression ratio, so this seems like it could be especially beneficial for a racing engine, especially if coupled with forced-induction.

Thoughts?

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Tim.Wright
330
Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: swashplate engines

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Thanks to the spambot for bringing this up by using one my quotes from another thread. Bloody classic one that.

Although I don't know anything about swash plate engines, I do know that they have been used (and probably still are) as the pressure pump in the hydraulic systems in the F1 cars. So in this case in the reverse sense of an engine. It allows a constant pressure variable flow output by changing the swash plate angle. Pretty neat device.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: swashplate engines

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Not an engine, as such, more a power conversion/transmission system with multiple applications. Here is an example....

autogyro
autogyro
53
Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: swashplate engines

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DaveW wrote:Not an engine, as such, more a power conversion/transmission system with multiple applications. Here is an example....
I think we looked at this some time ago before they added the word digital to a basic hydraulic transmission system.

DaveW
DaveW
239
Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: swashplate engines

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autogyro wrote:I think we looked at this some time ago before they added the word digital to a basic hydraulic transmission system.
Not quite so "basic" actually, see here for a simple explanation. Incidentally, who are "we" and who are "they"?

HowlerMonkey
HowlerMonkey
1
Joined: 08 Sep 2013, 05:06
Location: West Palm Beach, Florida

Re: swashplate engines

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Torpedos are single use engines and the swashplate engines probably see significant wear during their one run.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
621
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: swashplate engines

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there's nothing new about swashplate engines (in recent decades they have been usually 'wobble-plate' engines)
a wobble-plate engine might benefit in a single-use application from having flexures designed to a low fatigue life

swashplate drives were common, about 1 million were used in WW2 in UK and USA aircraft gun turrets
in civil use as variable speed drives they seemed to last 10000+ hours
unless the control knob was turned when the drive was stationary

CBeck113
CBeck113
51
Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: swashplate engines

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Now they're used as hydraulic motors in construction equipment, with fixed or adjustable displacement.
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

countersteer
countersteer
9
Joined: 28 Apr 2007, 14:37
Location: Spring Hill, TN

Re: swashplate engines

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I found this interesting...
http://jalopnik.com/deloreans-next-radi ... 1484018531

The article includes John Delorean's original notes and sketches from 1980. He also spoke of a flywheel based KERS system.

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
233
Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 00:48

Re: swashplate engines

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The old GM Harrison V5 and V7 A/C compressors are also swashplate pumps.

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humble sabot
27
Joined: 17 Feb 2007, 10:33

Re: swashplate engines

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it does seem logical to drive the pistons via the plate, much less load on the system that way. Hence being a logical solution for a gear/pulley/electric pressure pump, rather than being an ICE, driving the plate.
the four immutable forces:
static balance
dynamic balance
static imbalance
dynamic imbalance

Foyle
Foyle
8
Joined: 10 Apr 2014, 06:18

Re: swashplate engines

Post

tuj wrote:After doing some recent reading on torpedoes, I came across this engine design. I was really surprised reading about some of the engines' power output in early iterations along with relatively low weight. I started thinking that the swashplate engine has some real advantages, namely that its a barrel-shaped design generally which would make for good aerodynamics in a racecar.

I have read that the MK48 torpedo develops 500hp, not sure how heavy it is, but that sounds pretty good. I know it runs on OTTO fuel, so that's a little different than petrol, but still seems like an interesting design. I have heard that these engines were installed in airplanes as well, so they must have been at least somewhat reliable.

What are the draw-backs of the swashplate engine? I have seen designs that allow for variable compression ratio, so this seems like it could be especially beneficial for a racing engine, especially if coupled with forced-induction.

Thoughts?
Conventional crankshaft ICE engines are incredibly easy and cheap to manufacture, have low friction and work well with great performance, durability and huge speed range. 1000's of attempts to use other mechanisms to drive pistons over the last 100 years have all been abject technical/economic failures.

I worked professionally on a Z-crank engine for a couple of years. Bad idea. They are compact and perfectly balanced, but need spherical joints at each end of con-rod and a CV joint of some description to stop the 'spider' on the Z-crank (off which the conrods are mounted) rotating with respect to the cylinder block. These two mechanical details sink the idea due to the very high peak inertial and gas forces present in IC engines. Difficult to make lightweight high load spherical joints or CV joints (Well known Rzeppa type not suitable, need double Cardan joint or similar)

Swashplates for ICE engines are terrible as lateral forces and sliding friction losses are huge for necessary piston speeds. Even worse are the torpedo engine derivatives like Axial Vector, with pistons driven by bearings following cams - that induces huge lateral forces on the pistons and will destroy them if attempt to run at useful IC engine -relevant piston speeds for any length of time.

Swashplates are good for variable stroke small compressors and hydraulic motors/pumps with their low piston speeds where frictional power losses are low due to low sliding velocities.