VW cheat emissions test with "defeat device"

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MadMatt
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VW cheat emissions test with "defeat device"

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Probably the story of the decade there! This is BIG:
cnbc wrote:Volkswagen shares fell over 20 percent on Monday, after it told U.S. dealers to halt sales of some 2015 diesel cars, following regulators' discovery that software it designed for the vehicles gave false emissions data.

The company said on Sunday that it had launched an investigation.

In a statement published by the carmaker on Sunday, Chief Executive Officer Martin Winterkorn said, "I personally am deeply sorry that we have broken the trust of our customers.

"Volkswagen has ordered an external investigation of this matter," he said.

German authorities are set to probe Volkswagen for similar emissions manipulation in Germany, according to Dow Jones.

Volkswagen must now work closely with U.S. authorities, the German Transport Ministry spokesperson told newswires, adding that they expect the company to deliver reliable information.

VW could face civil penalties of $37,500 for each vehicle not in compliance with federal clean air rules. Some 482,000 four-cylinder VW and Audi diesel cars sold since 2008 are involved in the allegations.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) said on Friday the software deceived regulators measuring toxic emissions, adding that Volkswagen could face fines of up to $18 billion as a result.

Volkswagen is currently listed on both the European and global Dow Jones Sustainability Indices (DJSI), and was earlier this month deemed the most sustainable automaker among its indexed peers.

In a September 11 press release, Winterkorn said the award was evidence that the group was on its way to being the "world's most sustainable automaker."

A spokesperson for RobecoSAM, an international green investment group which puts together the DJSI along with S&P Dow Jones Indices, told CNBC Volkswagen's situation was being "closely monitored."

"Should the DJSI Index Committee come to the conclusion that Volkswagen AG is not eligible anymore for the DJSI, all market participants will be informed simultaneously," RobecoSAM's spokesperson explained in an email.

The Detroit News reported late Friday that VW dealers still had some 2015 diesel Jetta, Passat and Beetle cars for sale.

A VW representative on Sunday confirmed the partial halt of sales of the affected vehicles but did not give any numbers.

Winterkorn said, "We do not and will not tolerate violations of any kind of our internal rules or of the law," adding that the company was fully cooperating with the relevant agencies.

He gave no details on who would carry out the external investigation.

"This is not your usual recall issue, an error in calibration or even a serious safety flaw," Bernstein analysts wrote in a note on Sunday. "There is no way to put an optimistic spin on this - this is really serious."

Cynthia Giles, an enforcement officer at the EPA, said on Friday the cars in question "contained software that turns off emissions controls when driving normally and turns them on when the car is undergoing an emissions test".

The feature, which the EPA called a "defeat device," masks the true emissions only during testing. When the cars are on the road, they emit as much as 40 times the level of pollutants allowed under clean air rules meant to ensure public health is protected, Giles said.

"We have admitted to it to the regulator. It is true. We are actively cooperating with the regulator," a Volkswagen spokesman said on Sunday.

If each car involved is found to be in noncompliance, the penalty could be $18 billion, an EPA official confirmed during the telephone conference on Friday.

Volkswagen peer Daimler, meanwhile, signaled it may not be subject to the same violation.

"I have a rough idea of what is happening and that it does not apply to us," Daimler Chief Executive Dieter Zetsche said on Sunday at an event in Hamburg.

"But it is much too early to make a final statement on this," he added.
This is very serious. Cheating on this scale is outrageous. Reminds me of Toyota in the WRC back in 1993 when they purpose-built a system to cheat. Not only this, but imagine manufacturers looking at what VW achieved and not being able to compete, therefore withdrawing from the launch a model while they were probably equal if not better!

Think about all the marketing behind Diesel vehicles and how they lied to the public.

I am VW fan but I hope they will get a huge penalty, because they basically lied to EVERYBODY, which, from one of the 2 largest car manufacturer in the world, is crazy. Now I wonder if VW satellite brands are concerned as well (Audi, Seat, Skoda). Those having 4 cylinder diesel engines that is.

:shock:
Last edited by Richard on 24 Sep 2015, 10:21, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Updated thread title from "Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!"

CBeck113
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Joined: 17 Feb 2013, 19:43

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Ha ha.

Now that they've completely destroyed teh market for diesels in the US they can expect investigations in the EU for similar actions, but here they have teh German government to help them.
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

MadMatt
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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I agree that Americans are prone to go to court what nothing, but I really hope VW will pay for this (AND in Europe if they've put the same software trick in the cars), as this has effectively gave them an immense advantage on the diesel market, and therefore the automotive market considering what is being done across the world to make everybody drive diesel cars.

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FW17
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Goodbyr Audi TDI R18

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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18 billion.... :o

Wonder if VW are still keen on buying out Red Bull after this mess.
JET set

MadMatt
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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I remember the "TDI Power" slogan they used at LeMans by Audi for so many years. Sounds more like "TDI Cheater" now, as Audi and VW and closely linked. Never liked diesels, never liked VW's (and therefore Audi's) way of pushing for diesel engines everywhere (and even more in motorsport), now that's the the icing on the cake for non-diesel fans! =D>

However, I don't think there will be consequences in Europe, as emissions standards are different: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emission_standard

It might be that VW didn't need to cheat in Europe, but I think, lucky you Americans, you won't have to smell VW diesel engines anymore. You can go back to your 6.5L V8 engines. :wink:

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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thanks to MM (I was waiting for someone to post on this)

consider, the product was/is complying with the law
(it passed the mandated emissions testing and was not required to pass any tests that exist only in the imagination)

this is a play by the EPA
looking for a response from VW that will make people feel cosy
like much US activity by quasi-regulatory bodies (who sometimes seem mainly to act against foreign entities eg British banks)

yes, it pleases the diesel sceptic and anti-technobabble part of me
serve them right !
(those pious malcontents with no sense of proportion, demanding endless emission improvements and never being satisfied)
literally, they got what they (their EPA) asked for

the argument is over assumed NOx levels
not the micron-level particulates that are quasi-officially said (by statistical processing) to cause prematurity of deaths in Europe
eg 29000 annually in the UK and 60000 in Germany
statistical processing generating false outcomes, by believing the less healthy don't tend towards poorer, more polluted areas ?

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FW17
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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$18 billion was the penalty for BP oil spill too

basti313
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Well...if I remember it correctly the Toyota Prius empties its batteries to the end of the test, as soon as it realizes that it is running the European standard consumption test.
Don`t russel the hamster!

Cold Fussion
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 04:51

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Surely this is partly a failure to of the EPA emissions testing protocol and should call into question all the EPA testing results.

bhall II
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Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 20:15

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Tommy Cookers wrote:this is a play by the EPA
looking for a response from VW that will make people feel cosy
like much US activity by quasi-regulatory bodies (who sometimes seem mainly to act against foreign entities eg British banks)
It's market manipulation...
MadMatt wrote:
cnbc wrote:Volkswagen is currently listed on both the European and global Dow Jones Sustainability Indices (DJSI), and was earlier this month deemed the most sustainable automaker among its indexed peers.

In a September 11 press release, Winterkorn said the award was evidence that the group was on its way to being the "world's most sustainable automaker."

A spokesperson for RobecoSAM, an international green investment group which puts together the DJSI along with S&P Dow Jones Indices, told CNBC Volkswagen's situation was being "closely monitored."

"Should the DJSI Index Committee come to the conclusion that Volkswagen AG is not eligible anymore for the DJSI, all market participants will be informed simultaneously," RobecoSAM's spokesperson explained in an email.
Whether one agrees with sustainability initiatives or not, investors look upon them favorably these days. So, if VW has been intentionally misrepresenting the performance of its products in terms of sustainability, that's a pretty serious offense. It means the company is essentially lying about its future prospects, and the markets don't take kindly to that...
Bloomberg wrote:Volkswagen AG lost almost a quarter of its market value after it admitted to cheating on U.S. air pollution tests for years, putting pressure on Chief Executive Officer Martin Winterkorn to fix the damaged reputation of the world’s biggest carmaker.

The shares plunged as much as 23 percent to 125.40 euros in Frankfurt, extending the stock’s slump for the year to 31 percent. The drop wiped out about 15.6 billion euros ($17.6 billion) in value.

Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Perhaps the most detailed article concerning the VW fiasco I have read over the last 3 days:

Auto News: VW accused of using 'defeat device' software in 482,000 diesels to skirt U.S. clean-air rules
http://www.autonews.com/article/2015091 ... diesels-to

Most interesting comment on the article, a satirical Youtube video which I believe is meant as a humour piece. I must say
Jaxwag3n must be a 'car guy' to have written the captions. I found it very amusing and rather insightful :lol:

Dictator reacts to VW-EPA Scandal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BRGasUUr4

emaren
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Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 11:36

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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I am pretty sure that if the EPA, or any other regulatory body, was to test real-world emissions or real-world economy or performance, that the results would show significant evidence of manufacturers understanding the tests and building the cars to test well.

In the motorcycle world it is common to have an aggressive drop in power (and hence noise) at the rev range required for the decibel test, such manipulation has been rife for years. Usually there is a power limiter in the first few gear and often a top gear limit that lowers the top speed to comply with various regulations - usually a simple plug-in resistor convinces the ECU that the bike is in 4th or 5th and removes these little oddities.

I doubt that VW are alone, I suspect that if the investigations widen, that many other foreign manufacturers will be caught in the net.....

MadMatt
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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For sure the manufacturers tend to build their engines towards achieving the best numbers at the emission test and consumption tests, but I think this is on another scale, as they purpose-built a secret algorithm to cheat these tests. I can imagine something that would inject more diesel in order to reduce NOx emissions, or reduce DI pression.

Of course when a manufacturer decides to promote a certain working condition (rpm, bmep, etc) towards achieving good results at the tests to show this to the public, it is part of the engine's character/behavior. Again, we are talking here about something specifically designed to cheat THE TESTS, not just an engine behavior that will follow the driver all day long and that needs a lot of consideration/compromise while this cheat would basically give VW a win/win situation (test passed, and no engine character penalty for having to pass the test).

What would be interesting is numbers on how bad the situation is on these VW and Audi engines. The thing with cheating this bad is that most probably many manufacturers gave up on diesel engines due to VW's "clear" superiority which was now we see, completely wrong.

Another aspect (and I am also repeating myself) is the impact to the public that this cheating has. I believe this will have an impact on sales worldwide. The Frankfurt motorshow is happening right now, and journalists said they were pushed out of the VAG area if asking questions about this. :roll:

VW means Volkswagen (people's car or whatever you translate it to), and they have betrayed the public, so I think it is pretty bad for their image!

Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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yes, I hope that VW suffers

but .... this is a technical site .......
where's the cheating exactly ?
the tests are passed, not cheated

aren't people basically complaining that bears defaecate in the woods ?

with EV and hybrid 'economy' cheating is actually compelled by actual law
eg 30% efficient routes to motor electricity have to be falsified as 100% to fake a comparison in fuel consumption terms
(another poster has already said that hybrids do essentially the same thing as VW - apparently with official approval everywhere)

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