McLaren MP4-12C

[Pierce89]

I think the global financial crisis had a big effect on the sales of the McLaren 12C. It was just a case of unfortunate timing more than anything. There's nothing wrong with the products themselves

There is something wrong. They don't evoke emotion like the Italians. The 458 was released into the same financial crisis, but its filling Ferrari's coffers quite nicely. Also @X, to me, the "engineer's supercar" should be one that provides the same performance with less complexity not just the one with the most techno-gimmicks. Also if you subscribe to the school of thought that an engineer is someone who can do for a dollar fifty what any fool can do for 100 dollars, then the Ferrari and Mclaren both come up short of a Corvette ZR1, which will truly match either car for performance at less than half the price.(I'd still take either over the Corvette,though)

[bhall]

The financial crisis didn't really affect those who can afford cars like the MP4-12C. In fact, those folks made out quite nicely in the grand scheme of things.

The problem with the MP4-12C - I get bored just typing its name - is what Pierce alluded to: it's too sterile. Skim through any number of comparisons between it and the 458 Italia, and you'll find that the McLaren's slightly superior performance figures just don't match the visceral experience of driving the Ferrari, a trait that's, by and large, the reason why the lucky 1% spend huge sums of money for ridiculous, impractical cars.

"...we're going to ignore the empirically ‘better' car, and choose to take home the car that delivers a sucker punch to the soul - the Ferrari 458 Italia. Because sometimes winning isn't just about being faster."

[FoxHound]

Well it seems Auto motor und Sport ran a story today that reckons McLaren automotive are losing cash at a rate of knots.
I can't seem to find it so it may have been pulled. However, it has invoked a bit of reaction from McLaren themselves.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula-one/22307813

The rumours are that Dennis and Mansour Ojjeh have fallen out, and the Bahraini's want more control over what happens to their cash. The 12C is not hitting the expected numbers, yet McLaren insist it is still making money from the automotive side of things.
Chris Sylt will no doubt come up with some comically festooned numbers to add to the mix... but still, things are very far from peachy for McLaren on and off the the track.

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/190426/1/d ... mpaign=rss

The story is all over the net. But details are still sketchy. The main points seem to be that the road car sales are only half the expected number, the division is not making money and Dennis is scaled back to being non executive chairman. He says that the change in role was initially agreed. But I can imagine that he feels like he has failed to create the British Ferrari as his vision was. Ferrari are expanding and have very good sales. So something has gone wrong. Perhaps the petrol heads simply love big gas sucking NA engines.

[Saribro]

Perhaps customers are not comfortable enough jumping on the second road car, over a decade after a sole predecessor, from a racing company. (The SLR traded under the Mercedes badge with a McLaren postfix, hence I'm not counting it. It's all about perception.)

[Pup]

To add a few hard numbers to the conversation, the latest financial info available, which is for 2011, can be found here...

https://www.duedil.com/company/01967717 ... financials

Those figures represent the first 6 months worth of sales, and we can see that they have been making money on the cars from the start - though obviously not nearly enough at that point to cover administrative and other expenses.

We also know that McLaren met their first year sales prediction of 1000 cars...

http://www.carsuk.net/mclaren-automotiv ... -counting/

And from that and earlier discussions we also know that their eventual goal is 4000 cars per year, starting in 2014.

So to me, the 3500 figure from AMuS seems a bit sketchy. If they're only talking about 2012 numbers, then it seems high. I don't think they'd ramp so quickly from 1000 to 3500 per year when they don't plan to get to 4000 for another two years.

And if they're talking about total sales, the goal sounds reasonable - 1000 year 1 and 2500 year 2 - but the sales make less sense. You'd have to assume that they sold their 1000 cars the first year, but only 750 the second. Possible, assuming the bottom dropped out, but unlikely, especially when you consider that they had announced that 1600 deposits had been placed before production even started.

And then there's this article, which claims that the 12c is sold out until 2014...

http://www.carsuk.net/mclaren-mp4-12c-s ... ntil-2014/

Anyway, the 12c is a good car, no doubt. If there was a mistake, I might suggest that it was in not introducing the halo car first - to establish the brand in the eyes of the press - and then launch the 12c afterwards, as a more affordable, more drivable version. Had they done that, then I think the press would have been far kinder on the car.

[Richard]

he has failed to create the British Ferrari.

It's rather early to judge that, most new ventures have hard times as well as success - Rome wasn't built overnight.

Also success and failure are transitory. Every great company has had rough times in the past and will fall on hard times in the future.

[FoxHound]

I might suggest that it was in not introducing the halo car first - to establish the brand in the eyes of the press - and then launch the 12c afterwards, as a more affordable, more drivable version. Had they done that, then I think the press would have been far kinder on the car.

It still would not fix the intrinsic flaw of the car. Soul. That thing you can't engineer.
I might suggest McLaren look more closely at what customers want rather than what McLaren demand they have. The 12C could very well be a mistake McLaren learn from. When I say mistake I don't mean the car to be a failure per se, just to be clear.

There needs to be drama. Wow factor. This is where the 12C is hit and miss. Some like it others just don't really have much of an opinion on it.
Compare this to Ferrari or Pagani or even stratosphere level Porsche. They invoke some kind of reaction that makes you either love it to the core, or despise it. The P1 is such a car in my view, and I reckon a few coats at McLaren heeded the press early on and went "all in" on this project.
Not the car the 12C should have been, but the execution the 12C should have had.

[wesley123]

It still would not fix the intrinsic flaw of the car. Soul. That thing you can't engineer.
I might suggest McLaren look more closely at what customers want rather than what McLaren demand they have. The 12C could very well be a mistake McLaren learn from. When I say mistake I don't mean the car to be a failure per se, just to be clear.

It is your opinion that it is an mistake, another person might think otherwise.

There needs to be drama. Wow factor. This is where the 12C is hit and miss.

Does there? So every car that does not have this(which is a matter of opinion anyways) is a hit and miss?

Some like it others just don't really have much of an opinion on it.

Just like any other car

Compare this to Ferrari or Pagani or even stratosphere level Porsche. They invoke some kind of reaction that makes you either love it to the core, or despise it. The P1 is such a car in my view, and I reckon a few coats at McLaren heeded the press early on and went "all in" on this project.
Not the car the 12C should have been, but the execution the 12C should have had.

And that is, again, a matter of opinion. I prefer the clean design of the McLaren over the complex shape of the Hyura or any other supercar any day. A car doesnt needs to be overly complex, I dont see why it needs to be.

The difference is that other manufacturers have history, and you just dont inject that into a car, that takes time.

The only problem the MP4-12C really faces is that it is a new car, and a new manufacturer, in a sea of well respected and well known manufacturers. Try to make your mark in a market that already exists for ages with the same manufacturers, and McLaren have done a very good job on that, it might not be a success, but it is a car that put McLaren on the map, and that is already more than anyone could have wished for.

[Pup]

It still would not fix the intrinsic flaw of the car. Soul. That thing you can't engineer.

I don't know if you're right or wrong, never having seen the car in person, much less driven one.

But 44 previous pages worth of this argument tell me that there's little point in pursuing the question.

[FoxHound]

@Wesley

When I first drove the then MP4-12C, it wasn’t quite the car I’d hoped it might be. Flashingly fast for sure, but tricky on the limit and not as responsive or intuitive as I wanted it to be. The result was a machine that for all its colossal pace left the driver feeling somewhat removed from the process, a pretty significant failing for a car such as this.

Andrew Frankel's opinion.

And I can get a few dozen more. That's not to say the car is rubbish, I will reiterate once more. It's just not the machine it could've been....far from it in fact.

Hell, I even found this opinion from Mr Anodyne himself, gawd bless 'im.

It is with both pleasure and frustration that I am writing to you at this early stage in your ownership of the McLaren MP4-12C. Pleasure because you are now part of our McLaren family and have bought into what I believe to be both the best car in its class, and the most exciting automotive adventure in decades; but frustration on a personal level because we have not yet been able to deliver on the high standards that we have promised and that should come as given with the McLaren brand

The difference is that other manufacturers have history, and you just dont inject that into a car, that takes time..

McLaren don't have history? I'm not so sure about that....
Because the way I see it, Pagani(you mention the Huayra) have only built 2 models(Huayra/Zonda) in their entire history along with exactly NO tophy wear to speak of.
How do they shift their motors I wonder?

[FoxHound]

I don't know if you're right or wrong, never having seen the car in person, much less driven one.

It looks tasty, so it should for 170k....If you are anywhere near the New Forest, there is a car dealership in Lyndhurst called Meridien.
Usually a bunch of Maserati's but only a week ago a chap turned up in a black 12C that looked the absolute dogs danglies.
That was of course until the Meridien guys wheeled out their own 458.
Different world here in the sticks sometimes, plenty of Saudi students with cash to burn on toys as these. Suffice to say here in Hampshire at least, their weapon of choice is the Dodge SLS.

Well worth the trip by the way, there is a pub right across from the dealership with only a public walkway splitting them.
Do go in the summer, because once you tire of 12C's, 458s and R2D2's, the talent spotting is incredible.

[WhiteBlue]

Perhaps the 12C is a bit ahead of it's time. By now the petrol heads still favour the NA gas guzzlers. But in some years time I'm sure the the turbo trend in F1 will influence the perception and the 12C concept will rise in the appreciation of the main stream. It will also depend on the performance of the McLaren F1 team. If the decline continues with no championships for some more years Dennis will have a hard time to catch up with Ferrari in brand image. He already suffers from selling his name right to title sponsors for many years. Marlboro, West and Vodafone got a lot of milage out of the F1 sucesses. McLaren are virtually unknown except for the hard core F1 fan. At least if you measure the brand image against Ferrari or even Red Bull. The Red Bull brand is much more valuable and much better advertised than McLaren.

This cars engine still has got me thinking. Then the rumours of "Scuderia McLaren" and stuff... I would love to see McLaren following that "pure racing and nothing else" path.

I think it is all an ego thing of Ron Dennis. He wants to be the British Enzo Ferrari. He tends to forget that a copy of a business plan is even more difficult to make successfull than a copy of a racing car.

I really like the 12C but I have been sceptical right from the start that McLaren will achieve their ambitious targets. The market is very well covered by Ferrari and to go head to head with them in the volume business needs brand image and pedigree of a true sports car manufacturer which McLaren does not have. They have a reputation for making exotic sports cars in small numbers but not thousands of cars per annum. For that you have to have an extensive dealership network with excellent local tech support as Ferrri is having all over the world. I know at least three Ferrari dealerships in Bavaria but I have no clue where the next McLaren dealership is located. I suspect that situation is similar in other parts of the world.

[wesley123]

The difference is that other manufacturers have history, and you just dont inject that into a car, that takes time..

McLaren don't have history? I'm not so sure about that....
Because the way I see it, Pagani(you mention the Huayra) have only built 2 models(Huayra/Zonda) in their entire history along with exactly NO tophy wear to speak of.
How do they shift their motors I wonder?

McLaren have built the F1, that was the only car they have made before, and that was more of a fun venture rather than make a jump to the customer car biz. So on that McLaren has no car history at all(apart from F1, but we are talking about the car biz here), their MP4-12C is the first step into the consumer market. They are a new manufacturer and have a lot to learn.

[FoxHound]

They are a new manufacturer and have a lot to learn.

Exactly why the 12C is very far from the finished article.

You may paint it as something you love and like. But as a product, it falls behind the 458 and it's competitors in terms of target audience.
I understand the 12C is actually a prototype in itself, with many changes having happened and many more mooted. So as I said in the beginning, the original is good but not a watershed in motoring history.
In time, maybe McLaren will learn from this and make a 12C "GT3". It took Porsche a while to do the same with the original 911 let us not forget. But the market....and Mclaren's offset liabilities(Mercedes buyback/Mumtalak responsibility) may not be so kind on its future plans.

Their position is tenuous, however much you love the 12C. If it can't make cash, some hawks will be circling of that you can be assured. I'm not saying it's the end of McLaren, what I am saying is that it may be the end of McLaren on McLaren's own terms.

The P1 is not the answer.

No. What McLaren need is another knight in shining armour to provide funds no questions asked.

Ferrari have Fiat and their own ability to fund growth. Red Bull have themselves and no automotive expense.
Mercedes had McLaren and are now critically, bettering their former stable mates not only on the track, but also with their own crude(some say) Dodge(others say) SLS AMG.

Haug 1 Dennis 0?