Ferrari F2012

[Mr.G]

http://www.blogf1.it/2012/03/09/red-bull-e-ferrari-hanno-due-fessure-sullala-posteriore/

This article claims that also F2012 is experimenting with a RW F-Duct similar to RB8

This article claims only that the F2012 have similar reflections on bottom of RW as RB8

[Gerhard Berger]

why are teh "acer" ducts now targeted by the armchair aerodynamisists as teh rot cause of Ferrari's problems?

they have multiple issues ranging from low grip, lack of downforce, understeer to oversteer transition is too rapid, tyre wear.

A lot of this points to some fairly basic fundamentals that have gone wrong and appears to be areas where Ferrari has been in sready decline since 2007/8

The oversteer on the exit of corners is probably causing the rapid tyre degradation. If you fix the oversteer, it is quite conceivable that you fix the tyre degradation issues. And then if you consider that oversteer is caused by lack of rear downforce, and that the acer ducts (which did not work as expected) were supposed to generate rear downforce, then you can see why people think the acer ducts are the root of many problems for Ferrari.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

why are teh "acer" ducts now targeted by the armchair aerodynamisists as teh rot cause of Ferrari's problems?

they have multiple issues ranging from low grip, lack of downforce, understeer to oversteer transition is too rapid, tyre wear.

A lot of this points to some fairly basic fundamentals that have gone wrong and appears to be areas where Ferrari has been in sready decline since 2007/8

The oversteer on the exit of corners is probably causing the rapid tyre degradation. If you fix the oversteer, it is quite conceivable that you fix the tyre degradation issues. And then if you consider that oversteer is caused by lack of rear downforce, and that the acer ducts (which did not work as expected) were supposed to generate rear downforce, then you can see why people think the acer ducts are the root of many problems for Ferrari.

I agree with most everything you post mate, except the Acer Ducts. I understand they're not currently getting the launch exhaust position right, but they claimed it provided the most performance.
Why they're not getting that performance to translate to on the track gains, I'm not sure. Something is amiss here...

[Gerhard Berger]

why are teh "acer" ducts now targeted by the armchair aerodynamisists as teh rot cause of Ferrari's problems?

they have multiple issues ranging from low grip, lack of downforce, understeer to oversteer transition is too rapid, tyre wear.

A lot of this points to some fairly basic fundamentals that have gone wrong and appears to be areas where Ferrari has been in sready decline since 2007/8

The oversteer on the exit of corners is probably causing the rapid tyre degradation. If you fix the oversteer, it is quite conceivable that you fix the tyre degradation issues. And then if you consider that oversteer is caused by lack of rear downforce, and that the acer ducts (which did not work as expected) were supposed to generate rear downforce, then you can see why people think the acer ducts are the root of many problems for Ferrari.

I agree with most everything you post mate, except the Acer Ducts. I understand they're not currently getting the launch exhaust position right, but they claimed it provided the most performance.
Why they're not getting that performance to translate to on the track gains, I'm not sure. Something is amiss here...

I think in theory, blowing the brake ducts provides alot of performance. Perhaps in practice, they are not though. They were forced to cut the top of the end of the acer duct out in order for them to be legal and perhaps this is causing too much spillage, with exhaust gases hitting the tyres and creating even more dirty air which is upsetting the diffuser.

[myurr]

I think in theory, blowing the brake ducts provides alot of performance. Perhaps in practice, they are not though. They were forced to cut the top of the end of the acer duct out in order for them to be legal and perhaps this is causing too much spillage, with exhaust gases hitting the tyres and creating even more dirty air which is upsetting the diffuser.

Weren't Ferrari the only team to try exiting cooling air through the same ducts? Everyone else has separated those functions allowing them to use the bodywork to provide a clear deflection of the exhaust. For the Ferrari they seemed to be relying more on the down wash airflow over the side pods than the coanda effect used by the other teams. To be clear all the teams are using both effects but different emphasis is being placed on each. McLaren and Red Bull, for example, are using coanda to deflect and direct the exhaust downwards which then follows the down wash in that area. Red Bull are coupling this with further bodywork, McLaren seem to be able to get the desired effect without resorting to more bodywork in the airflow.

[hardingfv32]

I think in theory, blowing the brake ducts provides alot of performance. Perhaps in practice, they are not though.

The exhaust gas is at 84m/s at the exhaust tip. It falls rapidly in the first 150-200 mm of travel to 30-50 m/s. The exhaust flow is not going to make it to the brake duct structure.

Brian

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I think in theory, blowing the brake ducts provides alot of performance. Perhaps in practice, they are not though.

The exhaust gas is at 84m/s at the exhaust tip. It falls rapidly in the first 150-200 mm of travel to 30-50 m/s. The exhaust flow is not going to make it to the brake duct structure.

Brian

Actually unless you've been in the room when the engineers were doing their simulations & analyzed the data from the track, you have no clue what the exhaust flow is doing. You're only making an assumption.

[ysyy88]

The car seems very low

is this "low" the origin of the controversial lotus anti-dive system ?

[bhallg2k]

Nah. That "low" is the result of someone Photoshopping the floor too high.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

why are teh "acer" ducts now targeted by the armchair aerodynamisists as teh rot cause of Ferrari's problems?

they have multiple issues ranging from low grip, lack of downforce, understeer to oversteer transition is too rapid, tyre wear.

A lot of this points to some fairly basic fundamentals that have gone wrong and appears to be areas where Ferrari has been in sready decline since 2007/8

The oversteer on the exit of corners is probably causing the rapid tyre degradation. If you fix the oversteer, it is quite conceivable that you fix the tyre degradation issues. And then if you consider that oversteer is caused by lack of rear downforce, and that the acer ducts (which did not work as expected) were supposed to generate rear downforce, then you can see why people think the acer ducts are the root of many problems for Ferrari.

While in fact it could also be balance problems, and the emphasis on downforce from acer ducts was simply too much when the actual numbers are down. Then there is the corner entry unstability.

It all smells a lot like a fundamental lack of downforce. And that has been a trait for years now. And looking at other cars like the Red Bull and the Mclaren, its like these guys have a god working design office, where Ferrari seems to have a pretty clueless department. Unbelievable when you look back at the Jean Todt years when they produced cars that would win 7 or 8 races a year.

Remains to be seen how far they can get this F2012 to work, but it doesnt look like a championship fighting car for now.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97958

No development on the exhaust until may at the earliest.

"Ferrari has said that a change of exhaust layout mid-way through testing was the main cause of its tough winter. Domenicali said a new version of the F2012's original exhaust would not be ready until the May test at Mugello.

"The process is long because we need to modify the bodywork," he said. "Our technicians need to understand how to intervene with the CFD, then analyse temperatures, prepare the parts and test them. We'll be able to do that only at Mugello testing in May."

Painfull and if they gonna copy red bulls concept, a huge embarrassment imo.

I wonder if Ferrari shouldnt just copy the entire Reb Bull car and take it from there. Newey seems to be a lot better in finding the gains in the curent rules.
No need to plodder for years in own concepts, if the end result is copying red bullsystems anyway. Just look at the rear pull rod suspension everybody thought would be on the Ferrari since 2010, but only got adapted on this f2012.

[radosav]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/97958

No development on the exhaust until may at the earliest.

"Ferrari has said that a change of exhaust layout mid-way through testing was the main cause of its tough winter. Domenicali said a new version of the F2012's original exhaust would not be ready until the May test at Mugello.

"The process is long because we need to modify the bodywork," he said. "Our technicians need to understand how to intervene with the CFD, then analyse temperatures, prepare the parts and test them. We'll be able to do that only at Mugello testing in May."

Painfull and if they gonna copy red bulls concept, a huge embarrassment imo.

I wonder if Ferrari shouldnt just copy the entire Reb Bull car and take it from there. Newey seems to be a lot better in finding the gains in the curent rules.
No need to plodder for years in own concepts, if the end result is copying red bullsystems anyway. Just look at the rear pull rod suspension everybody thought would be on the Ferrari since 2010, but only got adapted on this f2012.

i remember that red bull's first exhaust solution was considered the best when we saw it first time.it was something that everyone should copy. and then 4 weeks later red bull showed new exhaust that was copy from another team exhaust systems. this set of rules doesn't leave you much space for manipulation.

[Jimi_Hendrix_1967]

Interesting observation. Maybe they did quickly copy the launch spec red bull concept when Ferrari figured out the acer ducts werent working, and then got caught pants down when red bull showed their actual concept last week.

[godlameroso]

Look guys, just because a team isn't where it wanted to be, doesn't mean their car lacks performance. It's just that they're not where they wanted to be, it could be that their car is a winner, we just don't know. No one in all the days of testing really put the hammer down, and went for a really fast lap, no one. For all we know, Sauber, or FI might be podium contenders, they might not. It's only five more days till FP1.

[radosav]

Interesting observation. Maybe they did quickly copy the launch spec red bull concept when Ferrari figured out the acer ducts werent working, and then got caught pants down when red bull showed their actual concept last week.

red bull was caught with their pants down too at first test in jerez. their actual concept was really firefighting measure after the FIA cleared mlaren and ferrari exhaust after red bull protested it. you don't test actual concept last day of testing.