Red Bull RB8 Renault

[bonjon1979]

Seems strange to suggest that there's nowhere else for the air to go after blowing through the brake ducts as none of the other cars have holes where Red Bull do. It's clearly to have an aerodynamic effect so it's quite right they've been told to block them up. It's a clever interpretation though and you can't blame them for going for it. I'm sure that other teams are feeding air out to have the same effect but perhaps it's not so obvious.

Watch ANY F1 car under braking, the carbon dust is clearly visible being ejected sideways from the wheels. So to say that there is nowhere for the air to go, and that no other cars have holes, is not true. In case you had not noticed, ALL wheels have holes in them, otherwise they would be disc wheels!

Hmm, I don't think I was being clear or you didn't read my post properly. I wasn't saying there isn't air being ejected by other cars wheels, just that they don't have the holes in the spindle like red bull does. Of course air has to go somewhere, I'm just saying it doesn't NEED to be channeled out through the holes in the spindle which is clearly to have an aerodynamic effect.

[myurr]

If you read scarbs blog post about it then it appears the Red Bull had extra channels and holes in the hub that had the sole purpose of directing air to those vents. Because the hub rotates the FIA deemed that to be moveable aero and it was thus banned. Seems pretty clear and fair to me.

[bonjon1979]

If you read scarbs blog post about it then it appears the Red Bull had extra channels and holes in the hub that had the sole purpose of directing air to those vents. Because the hub rotates the FIA deemed that to be moveable aero and it was thus banned. Seems pretty clear and fair to me.

Exactly.

[aral]

If you read scarbs blog post about it then it appears the Red Bull had extra channels and holes in the hub that had the sole purpose of directing air to those vents. Because the hub rotates the FIA deemed that to be moveable aero and it was thus banned. Seems pretty clear and fair to me.

Exactly.

Could you please explain where you believe the air is supposed to go? The same amount of air is expelled through the wheels on ALL cars, so there will always be an aero effect!
RBR channelled the air past the wheelbearings, but the crux of the matter is that irrespective of what way this air is being channelled, the same amount of air is being expelled by ALL cars.
The FIA tech doc, stated that it was because of the ducts being UNSPRUNG, then any aero mods were not allowed. However they seem to have overlooked all the aero fins on the ducts. These aid aero and are also part of the unsprung mass, so if the FIA tech doc was to be taken literally, these fins, as used by all cars, should also disappear.

But I would point out that the FIA were aware of these hubs, well before clarification was sought, as the official F1 website, had drawings and explanations of the system.

It is now being widely reported that there is a witchhunt by two teams against RBR.

[myurr]

@gilgen - not true. The Red Bull was expelling more air, as it had extra venting to take in more air and expel it through those vents. That air served no other purpose other than maybe cooling the bearing.

This isn't a witch hunt if the team is indeed bending the rules. Red Bull have been getting away with many aero devices that push the limits of the rules for a while, and the FIAs preferred method of policing their own rules seems to be to wait for the other teams to discover something and then complain. This goes back to the frequent complaint on this board about lack of effective scrutineers and the expectation that teams will a) stick fairly rigidly to the rules and b) will police each other effectively.

[hardingfv32]

Because the hub rotates the FIA deemed that to be moveable aero and it was thus banned. Seems pretty clear and fair to me.

Why is it a movable aero device if its purpose is to cool the wheel bearings? The team was a solid ground when it proceeded with this design. The politics allows it to be designated an aero device. That is life in F1.

Brian

[myurr]

Because the hub rotates the FIA deemed that to be moveable aero and it was thus banned. Seems pretty clear and fair to me.

Why is it a movable aero device if its purpose is to cool the wheel bearings? The team was a solid ground when it proceeded with this design. The politics allows it to be designated an aero device. That is life in F1.

Brian

Is the way it's vented suggestive of its primary purpose being to cool the wheel bearings? How do other teams cool those bearings and then vent that air? Personally I'd rather they clamped down on all moveable aero than continually let teams get away with ever more.

[aral]

@gilgen - not true. The Red Bull was expelling more air, as it had extra venting to take in more air and expel it through those vents. That air served no other purpose other than maybe cooling the bearing.

This isn't a witch hunt if the team is indeed bending the rules. Red Bull have been getting away with many aero devices that push the limits of the rules for a while, and the FIAs preferred method of policing their own rules seems to be to wait for the other teams to discover something and then complain. This goes back to the frequent complaint on this board about lack of effective scrutineers and the expectation that teams will a) stick fairly rigidly to the rules and b) will police each other effectively.

d

The Red Bull intakes were no larger than any other cars, so how could it take in more air? On the grid walk, the vented hub was shown as an example of how to reduce the unsprung weight. Villedeprat has written an interesting article which puts the spotlight on two teams, continually referring Reed Bull items to FIA for clarification.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in bending rules. That is what innovation is all about. It has always happened, and without it, we would not have cars as advanced as they are, today. Ask Colin Chapman!

[hardingfv32]

Is the way it's vented suggestive of its primary purpose being to cool the wheel bearings? How do other teams cool those bearings and then vent that air?

While I will not argue with the right of the officials to call it an aero device, for me it just seemed about cooling the wheel bearings. I have no appreciation of its 'possible' value as an aero device.

I would view the system as preparations for a ductless brake system that possibly requires high operating temps that make their way to the wheel bearings.

Brian

[myurr]

I think that is part of the problem. Just like us the FIA has to judge the device in static conditions using the Mk I eyeball. Therefore if you see a rotating element with holes cut in it to move air around, and specifically in a place where other teams use non-rotating solutions, then you would have to say it's only fair for them to say it is a moveable aerodynamic device. They have no way of testing or knowing whether it's just an ingenious piece of packaging or if it represents the start of some new aero development race with unknown ongoing implications. If it's okay to cut holes in the hub for that purpose then is it okay to turn the hub into a ducted fan that actively draws air into the system and blows it out through a specifically shaped vent that helps the rest of the aerodynamics of the car? If the latter is not allowed, and under current rules banning moveable aero then you'd have to say it is not, then where do you draw the line and how do you police it effectively?

[hardingfv32]

Yes, the ruling does have long term value in making movable aero interpretations a little narrower.

Brian

[aral]

I think that is part of the problem. Just like us the FIA has to judge the device in static conditions using the Mk I eyeball. Therefore if you see a rotating element with holes cut in it to move air around, and specifically in a place where other teams use non-rotating solutions, then you would have to say it's only fair for them to say it is a moveable aerodynamic device. They have no way of testing or knowing whether it's just an ingenious piece of packaging or if it represents the start of some new aero development race with unknown ongoing implications. If it's okay to cut holes in the hub for that purpose then is it okay to turn the hub into a ducted fan that actively draws air into the system and blows it out through a specifically shaped vent that helps the rest of the aerodynamics of the car? If the latter is not allowed, and under current rules banning moveable aero then you'd have to say it is not, then where do you draw the line and how do you police it effectively?

But the air passes through the holes in wheels on all the cars. The wheel is fixed to the hub, so there is no difference between blowing air through the wheel, and blowing it through smaller openings in the hub.

[myurr]

But the air passes through the holes in wheels on all the cars. The wheel is fixed to the hub, so there is no difference between blowing air through the wheel, and blowing it through smaller openings in the hub.

The rims actually have controls on the amount of material you can use to build them which limits, to an extent, the aerodynamic usefulness. Yes it is a problem area, but the cars need wheels and the wheels need spokes unless you mandate a flat disc.

All the other teams run hubs without holes in them and so did Red Bull until very recently. I doubt it could be argued that it was essential to run with holes in it.

[bonjon1979]

If you read scarbs blog post about it then it appears the Red Bull had extra channels and holes in the hub that had the sole purpose of directing air to those vents. Because the hub rotates the FIA deemed that to be moveable aero and it was thus banned. Seems pretty clear and fair to me.

Exactly.

Could you please explain where you believe the air is supposed to go? The same amount of air is expelled through the wheels on ALL cars, so there will always be an aero effect!
RBR channelled the air past the wheelbearings, but the crux of the matter is that irrespective of what way this air is being channelled, the same amount of air is being expelled by ALL cars.
The FIA tech doc, stated that it was because of the ducts being UNSPRUNG, then any aero mods were not allowed. However they seem to have overlooked all the aero fins on the ducts. These aid aero and are also part of the unsprung mass, so if the FIA tech doc was to be taken literally, these fins, as used by all cars, should also disappear.

But I would point out that the FIA were aware of these hubs, well before clarification was sought, as the official F1 website, had drawings and explanations of the system.

It is now being widely reported that there is a witchhunt by two teams against RBR.

For goodness sake. Read the rules

11.4 Air ducts :
Air ducts around the front and rear brakes will be considered part of the braking system and shall not protrude beyond :
‐ A plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of 160mm above the horizontal centre line of the wheel.
‐ A plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of 160mm below the horizontal centre line of the wheel.
‐ A vertical plane parallel to the inner face of the wheel rim and displaced from it by 120mm toward the car centre line.

Furthermore :
‐ When viewed from the side the ducts must not protrude forwards beyond a radius of 330mm from the centre of the wheel or backwards beyond a radius of 180mm from the centre of the wheel.
‐ The ducts may not rotate with the wheels nor may they, or any of their mountings, protrude axially beyond the outer face of the wheel fastener.
‐ No part of the car, other than those specifically defined in Articles 12.8.1 and 12.8.2, may obscure any part of the wheel when viewed from the outside of the car towards the car centre line along the axis of the wheel.

The axle/spindle the wheel is attached to is spinning. The air is ducted through the axle. End of story.

Other solutions have air escaping into moving wheels - they don't have moving ducts in the same way.

[aral]

Could you please explain where you believe the air is supposed to go? The same amount of air is expelled through the wheels on ALL cars, so there will always be an aero effect!
RBR channelled the air past the wheelbearings, but the crux of the matter is that irrespective of what way this air is being channelled, the same amount of air is being expelled by ALL cars.
The FIA tech doc, stated that it was because of the ducts being UNSPRUNG, then any aero mods were not allowed. However they seem to have overlooked all the aero fins on the ducts. These aid aero and are also part of the unsprung mass, so if the FIA tech doc was to be taken literally, these fins, as used by all cars, should also disappear.

But I would point out that the FIA were aware of these hubs, well before clarification was sought, as the official F1 website, had drawings and explanations of the system.

It is now being widely reported that there is a witchhunt by two teams against RBR.

For goodness sake. Read the rules

11.4 Air ducts :
Air ducts around the front and rear brakes will be considered part of the braking system and shall not protrude beyond :
‐ A plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of 160mm above the horizontal centre line of the wheel.
‐ A plane parallel to the ground situated at a distance of 160mm below the horizontal centre line of the wheel.
‐ A vertical plane parallel to the inner face of the wheel rim and displaced from it by 120mm toward the car centre line.

Furthermore :
‐ When viewed from the side the ducts must not protrude forwards beyond a radius of 330mm from the centre of the wheel or backwards beyond a radius of 180mm from the centre of the wheel.
‐ The ducts may not rotate with the wheels nor may they, or any of their mountings, protrude axially beyond the outer face of the wheel fastener.
‐ No part of the car, other than those specifically defined in Articles 12.8.1 and 12.8.2, may obscure any part of the wheel when viewed from the outside of the car towards the car centre line along the axis of the wheel.

The axle/spindle the wheel is attached to is spinning. The air is ducted through the axle. End of story.

Other solutions have air escaping into moving wheels - they don't have moving ducts in the same way.

Maybe you should re read the rules. Whether the air passes through the wheel or through the stub axle, it is the same. it is the DUCT that is not allowed to spin, nor is its mountings. The duct is not secured to the wheel or axle, it is secured to the carrier, which neither moves or is ducted.