Sauber C32 Ferrari

[ringo]

http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.ph ... u=14795526

Ahhh! thought i was the only one waiting to see a side view with the engine cover off.

[Artur Craft]

So far, results are pointing to a major failure in such a design philosophy

I now wonder if because of car's shorter track(1,8m), the front wheels are already covering the frontal area of the sidepods and making the slim top of the sidepod's almost useless.

Compare this car with FI and the Top 3 and it's pretty obvious how far behind C32 got compared to C31

I was expecting this slim sidepod solution to become a trend in F1, but C32 just proved it all wrong

Now, I hope they don't take the spoon RW to tracks where downforce is more important as they aren't quick on sectors with fast corners anymore.

[wesley123]

imo the sidepods arent necessarily bad or flawed, I think the problem is in the exhaust. If you compare the sidepod to others the most striking difference is that it barely slopes down and the sidepod itself relies more on air around the sidepod than over it. That is great, if you dont have a Exhaust that needs to reach a very specific position, like is the case with the Coanda exhausts I am sure this solution is a better one. It kills a bit of lift that normally was created by a downsloping sidepod, and less lift=more downforce.

However the coanda exhaust rely heavily on the downwash over the sidepod, instead of air around the sidepod. The Sauber sidepod barely has any downwash so there is barely any airflow to actually push the exhaust plume down and get it where it is meant to be.

The exhaust plume might go where they want to on low speeds, but I think mainly on higher speed corners the exhaust plume doesnt go where they want it to go, and thus there is less downforce.

[lillschumi]

As i stated already in testning, the sidepod design is nothing radikal. All teams can do this but opted not. You see the drawbacks regardin c.o.g. The radiators is far higher and im guessing other components too.

+low drag, less lift (probably)
-less Coke bottle, bad downwash to direkt coanda, higher c.o.g.

I Think looking at the cars which seems fast (rb,ferrari,lotus, merc) you see they are sportig the same philosiphy (exhaust,coke bottle). I Think Sauber would have been in better shape evolving last years design.

[Huntresa]

As i stated already in testning, the sidepod design is nothing radikal. All teams can do this but opted not. You see the drawbacks regardin c.o.g. The radiators is far higher and im guessing other components too.

+low drag, less lift (probably)
-less Coke bottle, bad downwash to direkt coanda, higher c.o.g.

I Think looking at the cars which seems fast (rb,ferrari,lotus, merc) you see they are sportig the same philosiphy (exhaust,coke bottle). I Think Sauber would have been in better shape evolving last years design.

They dont have less coke bottle then the average team and plz dont compare to Ferrari that seems to think its alla bout the coke bootle since they have enough for two cars but enormous sidepod covering almost the entire floor section on the side.

[mep]

So far, results are pointing to a major failure in such a design philosophy

I now wonder if because of car's shorter track(1,8m), the front wheels are already covering the frontal area of the sidepods and making the slim top of the sidepod's almost useless.

Compare this car with FI and the Top 3 and it's pretty obvious how far behind C32 got compared to C31

I was expecting this slim sidepod solution to become a trend in F1, but C32 just proved it all wrong

Now, I hope they don't take the spoon RW to tracks where downforce is more important as they aren't quick on sectors with fast corners anymore.

It is true that the car has not performed very well so far but blaming the (side pot) concept for this is wrong.
The problems can lie somewhere completely different, impossible to see for an outsider.
McLaren has developed a new concept for their car as well and they don't do better than Sauber. It is fair to say that taking some risk to develop something new throws you back, at least for the beginning.
We have to wait and see how both teams develop. There is more to come.

[henra]

The exhaust plume might go where they want to on low speeds, but I think mainly on higher speed corners the exhaust plume doesnt go where they want it to go, and thus there is less downforce.

In the pics from@Artur Craft of the 2nd Day Barcelona Testing on Page 31 you can clearly see that the exhaust plume is predominantly not going into the direction where you would want it to have. It is blown inward instead of downward, just as you describe.

[Artur Craft]

It is true that the car has not performed very well so far but blaming the (side pot) concept for this is wrong.
The problems can lie somewhere completely different, impossible to see for an outsider.
McLaren has developed a new concept for their car as well and they don't do better than Sauber. It is fair to say that taking some risk to develop something new throws you back, at least for the beginning.
We have to wait and see how both teams develop. There is more to come.

You're right that we can't know for sure that the sidepod's design is the responsible for such poor pace, however, that's the major difference from C31

Last year's car had great downforce, as was Sauber's tradition untill this year, but C32 broke that tradition

You have to wonder, if such design was indeed good, then I bet Newey would have seriously looked into it the moment he saw it in the launch pictures. The fact is that such design didn't caught other designer's eyes doesn't give much hope for such design

We have to wait to see what will be the latter consequences of it but, so far, it doesn't look that promising anymore, at least for me

[raymondu999]

IMO Newey DID approach a similar direction - the RB9 sidepod inlets are smaller than the RB8 sidepod inlets - but crucially, he has maintained the sculpted approach to driving air towards the rear. There may be some water yet in Gary Anderson's review that the car's lack of sculpted sidepod and undercut may be robbing the coke bottle efficiency

[Artur Craft]

Sauber have one of the best facilities when it comes to CFD department and wind tunnel, however, they probably got some misleading data with it regarding this design and the whole exhaust plume area.

They surely would identify in the simulators that this design is compromising the diffuser's sealing capabilities, if the simulators were showing so. It probably isn't as this is a trick area to simulate correctly

This interview regarding Williams car might explain quite well the situation with C32:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106438

They say at some points that the floor pressure increases a lot when the coanda works right but when the car is on track and there is yaw and etc, then it get's inconsistent. It even mentions how the car have more grip available but drivers doens't feel confident to push enough because of sudden change in pressure(downforce)

I was thinking the exhaust plume driven by the Coanda exhaust was something that didn't give tones of downforce because it would still be quite restricted but, after this interview, I'm quite thinking otherwise now.

Using the Coanda effect to direct the exhaust gases into the tire/diffuser area seems to be crucial when the field is so tightly packed and the downforce points that it brings are very significant.

This interview almost definitevily explain what is C32's problem when you remember those pics showing where C32's exhaust plume is going

The problem is that I don't know if Sauber will have enough effort/resources to change such a substancial part of the car, in order to try to "fix" it

[R_Redding]

Although Sauber have good windtunnel and a nice cfd supercomputer ...they have no simulator.

Willem Toet mentions this fact in his Lanchester Lecture and the fact that the windtunnel is good for straight line data but near useless for cornering data or coanda exhaust.

I would expect that the other bigger teams gain significantly from having a simulator that can generate data from modelled parts in most attitudes and conditions before they commit to manufacture.

Rob

[shelly]

it is not like that, because the simulator uses the data that are generated from the models, i.e. windtunnel an cfd. It cannot give data about cornering and coanda if those data were not generated elsewhere before. What it does is performing a driver in the loop simulation in which the combinations of settings are tested dynamically (even if i think the aeromaps are static or quasi-static) and primarily you get an answer on driveability of a certain configuration, and a laptime which is driveability-corrected

[NathanOlder]

Sauber have one of the best facilities when it comes to CFD department and wind tunnel, however, they probably got some misleading data with it regarding this design and the whole exhaust plume area.

They surely would identify in the simulators that this design is compromising the diffuser's sealing capabilities, if the simulators were showing so. It probably isn't as this is a trick area to simulate correctly

This interview regarding Williams car might explain quite well the situation with C32:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106438

They say at some points that the floor pressure increases a lot when the coanda works right but when the car is on track and there is yaw and etc, then it get's inconsistent. It even mentions how the car have more grip available but drivers doens't feel confident to push enough because of sudden change in pressure(downforce)

I was thinking the exhaust plume driven by the Coanda exhaust was something that didn't give tones of downforce because it would still be quite restricted but, after this interview, I'm quite thinking otherwise now.

Using the Coanda effect to direct the exhaust gases into the tire/diffuser area seems to be crucial when the field is so tightly packed and the downforce points that it brings are very significant.

This interview almost definitevily explain what is C32's problem when you remember those pics showing where C32's exhaust plume is going

The problem is that I don't know if Sauber will have enough effort/resources to change such a substancial part of the car, in order to try to "fix" it

Im still failing to see how this car is better or equal to the W04 you have been banging on about. All i've seen is this car was just above average in Hulkenbergs hands in wet/drying conditions in which he excels at (which you claimed he doesnt) Maybe its time to stop the bashing of Lewis Hamilton and now Mercedes for obvious reasons. I know everyones entitled to their own opinion, but to say Hamilton is over rated is a little rich.

Back to the car, for me, sauber need to go back to basics. looks like they have over complicated things. Who knows, maybe they can get a handle on things in the near future. They better hurry, as Force India are looking way better.

[ringo]

I think it's too early to judge the weakness in this car.
Hulkenberg basically had his first race with the car, got points, and feels there car can do better.
There are too many factors like tyres and setup for us to point out the sidepod design just yet.
Area around the wheels doesn't seem too restricted.

I feel the sidepod design is fine for the coke bottle, more air is passing by with less direction changes thus more energy, but it's detrimental to the exhaust. It could be "blowing out" the exhaust too much.
They may need to shield the exhaust flow a bit from the flow passing the flanks of the side pod.

Redbull has done this around the exhuasts. See the round bulges on the bodywork around the exhaust exits?

a better view. the bulge above and to he right of siemes.

This gives better expansion of the flow. Also less disturbance, making it easier to aim and to predict.

[Artur Craft]

Im still failing to see how this car is better or equal to the W04 you have been banging on about. All i've seen is this car was just above average in Hulkenbergs hands in wet/drying conditions in which he excels at (which you claimed he doesnt) Maybe its time to stop the bashing of Lewis Hamilton and now Mercedes for obvious reasons. I know everyones entitled to their own opinion, but to say Hamilton is over rated is a little rich.

Back to the car, for me, sauber need to go back to basics. looks like they have over complicated things. Who knows, maybe they can get a handle on things in the near future. They better hurry, as Force India are looking way better.

I already admited on another threads that C32 really didn't live up to what I expected.

W04 is for sure much better, right now.

Monisha said in a interview, to f1.com, that they still believe in the potential of the car. I'm quite skeptical at the moment after seeing them so much far behind Red Bull(the pace setter car), but maybe they unlock some speed from it as the season develops and they can close or overtake some cars with that.