McLaren MP4-29 Mercedes

[PlatinumZealot]

And so the spread of knowledge continues...

Guys I think this lends some credence to previous suggestions of some of us on the board, that parts can be interchanged from car to car and work reasonably well due to the cars being so similar. This red-bull like wing is pretty much a carbon copy! I would be surprised if any surface of it is more than 1 inch different!

[Lucky]

[Tim.Wright]

This red-bull like wing is pretty much a carbon copy!

[trinidefender]

For all those that are going on and on about this being a copy of the RB wing well then you are only right in so much as a is a copy of the concept followed by RedBull. I can guarantee you that things like each element/overall wing AoA (angle of attack), camber profiles, spans and chords, spacing in between each wing, curves and pretty much all the small detail designs that had to be worked out in CAD program's then run in CFD and wind tunnels, would be different.

What PP wants out of the front wing can be established and since he has obviously looked at he airflow around the rest of the car he will be able to establish if the same concept used at RB will work at McLaren. As it happens it does work with what looks like minor changes to the rear bodywork and the new turning vanes under the nose (I'm fairly sure that such a large change in front wing design will always be accompanied by a change in those turning vanes).

The wing is then drawn up bit by bit and then when trouble areas arise, is changed piece by piece to suit the car and the design specifications. This will inevitably result in a wing that looks remarkably similar to he RedBull wing and may work in relatively the same way concerning flow and vortex structures but will have different L/D ratios, efficiency vs speed ratios, flex under load capability (which is more down to the carbon fibre structural specialists than PP, he will just work with them and tell them exactly what he wants). Lastly while the general flow/vortex structures may be similar I am fairly sure that the shaping of the vortices would be a bit different to suit the McLaren.

Yes it looks similar to RedBull but I'm sure that is only in concept of how it works, not in the actual downforce etc figures it gives.

[turbof1]

For all those that are going on and on about this being a copy of the RB wing well then you are only right in so much as a is a copy of the concept followed by RedBull. I can guarantee you that things like each element/overall wing AoA (angle of attack), camber profiles, spans and chords, spacing in between each wing, curves and pretty much all the small detail designs that had to be worked out in CAD program's then run in CFD and wind tunnels, would be different.

What PP wants out of the front wing can be established and since he has obviously looked at he airflow around the rest of the car he will be able to establish if the same concept used at RB will work at McLaren. As it happens it does work with what looks like minor changes to the rear bodywork and the new turning vanes under the nose (I'm fairly sure that such a large change in front wing design will always be accompanied by a change in those turning vanes).

The wing is then drawn up bit by bit and then when trouble areas arise, is changed piece by piece to suit the car and the design specifications. This will inevitably result in a wing that looks remarkably similar to he RedBull wing and may work in relatively the same way concerning flow and vortex structures but will have different L/D ratios, efficiency vs speed ratios, flex under load capability (which is more down to the carbon fibre structural specialists than PP, he will just work with them and tell them exactly what he wants). Lastly while the general flow/vortex structures may be similar I am fairly sure that the shaping of the vortices would be a bit different to suit the McLaren.

Yes it looks similar to RedBull but I'm sure that is only in concept of how it works, not in the actual downforce etc figures it gives.

Of course things never are exactly the same. However, they pragmatically took over almost every small detail from the red bull wing. usually when copying from an other team you see them incorporating some elements with their own wing. However, here they threw the old wing out, took a red bull wing and just molded it a bit everywhere sync it with the airflow structures of the car. It has been such a long while since anybody made such a resembling copy of an other team's work.

[stefan_]

Abu Dhabi 2014 - Thursday (20.11.2014)

[Thunder]

Of course things never are exactly the same. However, they pragmatically took over almost every small detail from the red bull wing. usually when copying from an other team you see them incorporating some elements with their own wing. However, here they threw the old wing out, took a red bull wing and just molded it a bit everywhere sync it with the airflow structures of the car. It has been such a long while since anybody made such a resembling copy of an other team's work.

That's very true, but it was to be expected. Like i said on the last Page, Peter Prodromou was a big Part of the Team that created the hugely sucessful Red Bull Aero Concept. Since he is now Part of McLaren it is only logical he keeps following that Route as long as it fits to the McLaren Concept.
Hence i wouldn't really call it a Copy, but that's nitpicking.

[JDC123]

Is surprises me it is so similar when there would have been a large number of people at redbull who helped design this wing so for one person to then take the entire design a recreate it is impressive. Given he would have been the only one at McLaren who understood the design concept behind it, would it be reasonable it is completely his design or would other designers/aerodynamicists have been involved given their limited understanding of the redbull concept?

[trinidefender]

Is surprises me it is so similar when there would have been a large number of people at redbull who helped design this wing so for one person to then take the entire design a recreate it is impressive. Given he would have been the only one at McLaren who understood the design concept behind it, would it be reasonable it is completely his design or would other designers/aerodynamicists have been involved given their limited understanding of the redbull concept?

He would had meetings with the McLaren aerodynamicists and the carbon structural guys and laid out individually with each group what he wants from the wing. He would then lay out his design concept. Considering that the front wing is his first project and that nobody at McLaren has experience with this aero concept I am sure he was mainly doing the design while at the same time showing the McLaren engineers where he wants the design to go. Remember that these aero guys all have aerodynamics and aerospace degrees backed up by years of experience. I'm sure it would be fairly easy for PP to show them exactly why it works.

I wouldn't be surprised if this wing isn't so much about this race but more about a learning experience for next years car. Essentially PP is showing McLaren where he wants the MP4-30 design to go and is using the front wing as a starting point for 2015. McLaren's race/setup engineers and designers then get data from this race and it's practice sessions to reaffirm that the way that PP is taking the company is the correct direction. I think this wing is more about next year than this year, it is just out now to give it testing, the more the better.

[turbof1]

There's still the possibility they'll actually race the wing if it shows to be an improvement. Ferrari had the same thing in 2011, testing a 2012 wing only to find out it worked better.

[f1rules]

I wouldn't be surprised if this wing isn't so much about this race but more about a learning experience for next years car. Essentially PP is showing McLaren where he wants the MP4-30 design to go and is using the front wing as a starting point for 2015. McLaren's race/setup engineers and designers then get data from this race and it's practice sessions to reaffirm that the way that PP is taking the company is the correct direction. I think this wing is more about next year than this year, it is just out now to give it testing, the more the better.

agree, i dont think they did much to adapt to this car, im sure its all for next year, and verifying data

[f1rules]

Of course things never are exactly the same. However, they pragmatically took over almost every small detail from the red bull wing. usually when copying from an other team you see them incorporating some elements with their own wing. However, here they threw the old wing out, took a red bull wing and just molded it a bit everywhere sync it with the airflow structures of the car. It has been such a long while since anybody made such a resembling copy of an other team's work.

im surprissed they came with this many frontwing updates during the last couple of months, knowing for sure, PP would follow his own route, but maybe they where preparing, gaining experience with flex concepts, carbon layout and stuff like that

[Jackles-UK]

im surprissed they came with this many frontwing updates during the last couple of months, knowing for sure, PP would follow his own route, but maybe they where preparing, gaining experience with flex concepts, carbon layout and stuff like that

Don't forget that it's only been the last couple of races where McLaren have pulled a gap on Force India. If they had not updated the car to make gains in key areas (FW was/is clearly one of those areas) and focused solely on the Prodromou inspired 2015 car it's likely that they would still be entrenched in a battle with FI for the 5th spot in the constructors and put at risk the massive chunk of extra prize money.

[ringo]

Hmm.. Looks like what ive been saying for all these years when it comes to F1 car design and convergent designing..

[PlatinumZealot]

If this prodromu guy can recreate a whole damn front wing from his memory to race track and he only just been hired this year, imagine how muw much influence he has on the 2015 car!

My gosh..just the thouht of the mclaren coming to terms with redbull in aerodynamics!