Williams FW38 Mercedes

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Post Reply
User avatar
Samraj_official
5
Joined: 11 Jun 2015, 11:19
Location: chennai,INDIA

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Jolle wrote:
Drica wrote:It looks to me that Williams are a bit lost. IIRC they said that they will focus more on mechanical grip and overall downforce, especially in the wet weather conditions. And we can see that, they've added more vortex generators on the sidepods, shifted from their own FW design to a more Mercedes influenced design, the engine cover is now closed, suspension geometry has been changed and what did they get? They are falling down the pecking order. And then, couple of days ago, i read that they won't sacrifice their low drag philosophy, because they believe it's not worth it. I mean, what's the point then?
Or... They are very efficient. Good investment in 2013, third in '14 and '15 (best possible) and now 4th with minimal investments. And it doesn't look bad for 2017 (4th? 5th?)
They spend an extra 60 million $ over force india ,so they arent so efficient in that perspective.

User avatar
Drica
2
Joined: 04 May 2015, 22:34

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Samraj_official wrote:
Jolle wrote:
Drica wrote:It looks to me that Williams are a bit lost. IIRC they said that they will focus more on mechanical grip and overall downforce, especially in the wet weather conditions. And we can see that, they've added more vortex generators on the sidepods, shifted from their own FW design to a more Mercedes influenced design, the engine cover is now closed, suspension geometry has been changed and what did they get? They are falling down the pecking order. And then, couple of days ago, i read that they won't sacrifice their low drag philosophy, because they believe it's not worth it. I mean, what's the point then?
Or... They are very efficient. Good investment in 2013, third in '14 and '15 (best possible) and now 4th with minimal investments. And it doesn't look bad for 2017 (4th? 5th?)
They spend an extra 60 million $ over force india ,so they arent so efficient in that perspective.
And Force India looks much better

User avatar
djos
113
Joined: 19 May 2006, 06:09
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Drica wrote:It looks to me that Williams are a bit lost. IIRC they said that they will focus more on mechanical grip and overall downforce, especially in the wet weather conditions. And we can see that, they've added more vortex generators on the sidepods, shifted from their own FW design to a more Mercedes influenced design, the engine cover is now closed, suspension geometry has been changed and what did they get? They are falling down the pecking order. And then, couple of days ago, i read that they won't sacrifice their low drag philosophy, because they believe it's not worth it. I mean, what's the point then?
As a long time Williams fan this car and season have been really disappointing. :(
"In downforce we trust"

User avatar
Drica
2
Joined: 04 May 2015, 22:34

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

djos wrote:
Drica wrote:It looks to me that Williams are a bit lost. IIRC they said that they will focus more on mechanical grip and overall downforce, especially in the wet weather conditions. And we can see that, they've added more vortex generators on the sidepods, shifted from their own FW design to a more Mercedes influenced design, the engine cover is now closed, suspension geometry has been changed and what did they get? They are falling down the pecking order. And then, couple of days ago, i read that they won't sacrifice their low drag philosophy, because they believe it's not worth it. I mean, what's the point then?
As a long time Williams fan this car and season have been really disappointing. :(
It really is.. I honestly hope that Spa and Monza will bring us the good old high speed Williams

Fulcrum
15
Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 18:05

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

This is my take on the situation. Apologies in advance for being a bit negative.

Here is a graphical representation of Williams' performance since 1990.

Image

The size of each bubble represents the championship position. The largest bubbles are the championship winning years (1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997), followed by the 2nd places (1991, 1995, 2002, 2003), and so on. Each bubble is centred on the co-ordinates [year, Average Points Per Race].

For the sake of clarity, the Average Points Per Race was calculated using the present day points system. For one thing, it allows for comparison across all years and, because it is the most "granular" points scoring system to be used, should provide more meaningful characterisation of performance - being capable of differentiating between 1st and 10th is more meaningful than being limited to 1st and 6th only.

There is fairly clear stratification in the chart:

- If you average 20 points or more per race, under most circumstances you're a championship contender, and capable of winning races.
- If you average more than 10 points, but less than 20, you're a competitive car, but not championship winning material. Wins are possible, but only under unique circumstances (retirements of faster cars, etc...).
- Less than 10 points per race, you're making up the numbers.

The Williams chart is highly dominated by engine era. Pre-1998 is the Renault era, and its obviously the best. During this time Williams experienced a confluence of engine dominance, technological dominance (active suspension, etc...), attracted top drivers (Mansell, Prost, Senna), and sponsorship (Rothmans).

1998-1999: Renault leaves the sport, Williams struggle with rebadged engines (Mecachrome, Supertec). The quality of the drivers drops (Zanardi, Schumacher R.), diminished sponsorship.

2000-2005: BMW engine power propels them up the grid. A stronger driver partnership exists (Schumacher R., Montoya), and they land big sponsorship (HP amongst others). Unfortunately, the development goes in the wrong direction, e.g. the Walrus nose, and BMW leaves for Sauber.

2006-2013: Absolutely dire. Inexperienced drivers (Webber, Hulkenberg, Senna, Maldonado, Rosberg, Bottas) and some really bad drivers too (Pizzonia, Nakajima, Senna, Maldonado). No engine partner, and 4 changes in engine provider (Cosworth, Toyota, Cosworth, Renault).

2014-2016: Switch to Mercedes engine power. Massa joins Bottas in 2014.

Outside of the Renault era, and the absolute height of BMW power, 2014 was the best result Williams could have hoped to achieve. This result was a complete step-change, breaking a disastrous ebb that began in 2004. Williams benefited from the issues at Renault and Ferrari, and have clearly been the next-best Mercedes-powered car, until very recently.

Given Renault and Ferrari were under-prepared, and are making continuous and large improvements to their respective engines, Williams can't expect to finish higher than 4th unless some component of the team's performance is radically altered. Where would this performance enhancement come from?

They already have the acknowledged class-leading engine package.

Hiring a championship winning driver is beyond their financial capabilities, and not in their DNA. They hired Prost and Senna in quick succession, but have never hired a World Champion since. At best it would simply maximise the potential of the car, without redefining that potential.

Innovation doesn't appear to be their strongest suit either, as evidenced by the Walrus episode, inability to make blown diffusers work properly, and their current issues with tyre management and general lack of downforce.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is much scope for improvement, unless they hire clearly faster driver(s), develop a significant technical upgrade that no-one else on the grid is aware of, or take possession of an engine no-one else has access to.

What is particularly worrying is how badly they fare during times of "engine equivalence". If we do enter an era of relative engine parity, and couple that with static regulations, I foresee Williams being threatened by other teams as well.

Jolle
132
Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Brilliant chart!

What you can see here clearly that F1, at least since the early 90's (and as we know even before that) is a very engine driven sport. Having the right engine at the right time is key, except in the early 2010's where everything was frozen.

For the last two rule "stints", 2009-13 and 2014-16 you can clearly see that they develop a fairly good base, but then lack the funds to develop it further.

Sevach
1043
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Image

User avatar
Thunder
Moderator
Joined: 06 Feb 2013, 09:50
Location: Germany

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Looks like another Test to simulate 2017 DF levels. Just like the weird Rear Wing from Barcelona.
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

User avatar
Martin_F
22
Joined: 11 Mar 2016, 22:54

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Few more from AMuS.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

LookBackTime
472
Joined: 19 Feb 2013, 20:33

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Testing - second day.

Image

Image

LookBackTime
472
Joined: 19 Feb 2013, 20:33

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Double decker rear wing on the @WilliamsRacing again towards the end of the test #F1

Image

Image

LookBackTime
472
Joined: 19 Feb 2013, 20:33

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Image

Image

LookBackTime
472
Joined: 19 Feb 2013, 20:33

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Bottas: Williams struggling with updates

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... h-upgrades

Valtteri Bottas concedes Williams struggled to make the gains it had hoped for from the second in-season Formula 1 test at Silverstone.

Williams tried three different front wings over the course of the 98 laps covered by Bottas on Wednesday.

The double-decker rear-wing trialled by Felipe Massa in the first test at Barcelona in mid-May also appeared late in the day.

Given its difficulties of late, failing to score a point in a race for the first time this year in the British Grand Prix, Williams had hoped the test would allow it to make considerable strides.

"We ran three front wings, all from this year, ones from the beginning [of the season] and the very latest ones, and we found small differences," Bottas told Autosport.

"We are honestly still struggling to see big differences as we would like.

"We were predicting bigger gains, but at the moment we're struggling a little bit to put it directly as downforce and laptime.

"We've found some results which could benefit us, not in the very near future, but later on."

Williams ran the rear wing - which is outside of the current regulations - for a day-and-a-half at the Circuit de Catalunya, but only in the final hour at Silverstone.

"It's adding downforce," Bottas said.

"The main thing is trying to fine tune the balance a bit better, and how much we gain with 'x' amount of downforce, especially in cornering conditions because that is the weakness we have at the moment - cornering grip.

"So we are trying to see what it does, if we can make the downforce in the corner a bit better."

Bottas also confirmed that aero updates to the FW38 - "which have been planned for a long time" - are lined up for the final two races before the summer break in Hungary and Germany.

"The overall feeling was definitely we improved some things a little bit," he said of the test.

"Small steps at a time, there's still a long season to go. It was definitely an important test for us.

"We'll look at the data, and especially the long runs we did to try and use those things to improve our race pace, but aero-wise the stuff we did today is more for next year."

User avatar
Drica
2
Joined: 04 May 2015, 22:34

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Well, that doesnt sound especially encouraging. They were so proud of that nose and front wing, only for it to bring a small step. From this point of view, it seems that the wiser move was to invest somewhere else, and not in that front wing. But hey, its easy to be a general after the battle.

SchuMassa
21
Joined: 15 Nov 2012, 16:42

Re: Williams FW38 Mercedes

Post

Williams to run new floor in Hungarian GP

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/willi ... gp-798644/

Williams plans to introduce a new floor at the Hungarian Grand Prix as it remains bullish aerodynamic updates can help it stave off the threat from Force India.

The Grove-based outfit has had two disappointing outings, and Force India is now just 19 points behind in the fight for fourth place.

But despite questions about just how much of a benefit new front wing designs introduced over the past fortnight have delivered, Williams is upbeat about its prospects.

Williams technical chief Pat Symonds said: "I respect Force India, they're a good team, but I'm confident we'll retain fourth place.

"We've got to bring performance to the car and we've got to use the car well, and we've got new parts still coming to the car.

"Force India have made some good aero steps in Barcelona and we probably haven't kept up with that. But we've now got to bring our new parts along. We've got a new floor in Hungary, which is quite good."

Better understanding

Williams focused on evaluating new aerodynamic parts at the Silverstone test this week, but Valtteri Bottas admitted progress had not been as great as it may have hoped.

"We've made gains but at the moment we struggle a little bit to put it directly into downforce and laptime," he said.

"But we've found something which also could benefit us not maybe in the near future, but later on."

Tyre knowledge

One of the issues that has swung Williams' performances in recent races has been tyre management – with it having a huge impact on their pace.

The team is trying to get to the bottom of whether its fluctuations in form are down to temperature variations or set-up.

When asked if mastering the tyres was the key to a better second half to 2016, Symonds said: "It probably is. We need raw performance as well so we need to get the aero up a bit, but it is to get on top of the tyres."

Post Reply