Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[kalinka]

I was crying for those Barcelona points because other lost points you could blame on Lewis if you want, but not that ( ok, Hungary was the same, but that doesn't hurt that much ). I wouldn't blame on him lots of other DNF's too, but that's the one that can't be argued another way. That's why I'm sorry for those points. Other DNF's you can consider as bad luck/driver error that strikes everyone in every championship, and that's normal.
It was clearly out of his reach to control that situation. You can blame the team for it, but it's not likely that any of the F1 teams would investigate into something that occurs once every year, at least not as hard as for other more frequent issuses. I'm not sure but as I understand it was a rim manufacturer's error, so it's not that much McLaren could investigate it before.
I'm just happy that they didn't lost it on reliability issues like yers before with other drivers.

[Mandrake]

Just looking at raw point standings is misleading when judging the performance of the McLaren. It shows it was a reliable car with two drivers getting into the points regularly.

The gap to the RedBulls would be massive had they had the same reliability. Also Ferrari had a lot of reliability and Massa failures this season.

Apart from that, the McLaren has gone from sometimes fastest and second fastest, to clearly third fastest atm. This backward development is kind of sad cause they looked strong in the beginning and their F-Duct made the competition worry. Unfortunately the EBD seemed to have been way more beneficial and complex than the F-Duct.....

[richard_leeds]

The development race this year can be seen as F-Dcut v EBD. The EBD teams won probably because it was harder to copy than the F duct.

[ell66]

The development race this year can be seen as F-Dcut v EBD. The EBD teams won probably because it was harder to copy than the F duct.

im convinced the f-duct id the more powerfull tool, but its a lot easier to get working than the EBD's, i think they got the basic fundamentals wrong for this years car...the rear end and suspension for example.

[Vasco]

The development race this year can be seen as F-Dcut v EBD. The EBD teams won probably because it was harder to copy than the F duct.

im convinced the f-duct id the more powerfull tool, but its a lot easier to get working than the EBD's, i think they got the basic fundamentals wrong for this years car...the rear end and suspension for example.

I agree too...comparing the 3 cars without the F-Duct and EBD, I would think that the MP4/25 would be significantly slower than the RBR and Ferrari. The impression I get is that they designed the car around the F-Duct. The main issues that have plagued them this season are the poor mechanical grip and running the stiff suspension.

Ahh well, hopefully they get it right with the new tyres next year.

[kalinka]

There is another factor at McLaren that we do know as their problem this year : Sometimes they can't guess the right downforce level with F-Duct. I think it was the problem in Bahrein, partly in Barcelona, Monza was a total lottery, and I think they fail in Brasil too, but not that much.
They didn't understand the car fully yet. It would be crucial for next race too, but it seems that on smoother tracks they can guess it much precisely, or it's just their stiff suspension that prevents them to set it up right on bumpy tracks. Maybe they understand it fully, but on bumpy tracks they have to do a compromise between DF/Speed/Suspension (?)

[JMN]

Quite obviously the car does have it's issues. It seems difficult to set up properly, it's sprung alot firmer than the Bulls and the Ferraris and it generally appears as though there's a weak correlation between the simulated and actual performance of new parts. Whether the tire wear (and difficulty of getting the tires heated properly) of the last few races relates to solely to these issues is tough to say. It's possible they're now getting so much downforce out of the EBD, they can't balance it out in the front. Hamilton running wide a few times at turn 1 comes to mind. However, fact of the matter is the Macca still clocked the fastest lap during the race. I realise the Bulls most likely backed off fairly early, not so sure about Alonso.

[wesley123]

There is another factor at McLaren that we do know as their problem this year : Sometimes they can't guess the right downforce level with F-Duct. I think it was the problem in Bahrein, partly in Barcelona, Monza was a total lottery, and I think they fail in Brasil too, but not that much.
They didn't understand the car fully yet. It would be crucial for next race too, but it seems that on smoother tracks they can guess it much precisely, or it's just their stiff suspension that prevents them to set it up right on bumpy tracks. Maybe they understand it fully, but on bumpy tracks they have to do a compromise between DF/Speed/Suspension (?)

I completely disagree with you. They can guess the df correct, but the car cant get enough df fitted, this was very clear on hungary where the car was way behind. The car itself was set up way too heavy, it seems to handle unpredictable and also it seems it is hard to setup. They sure wouldnt run an car that can be fully understood. The fact imo was they expected the car/f-duct to be way ahead of the rest, made the car as quick out of the box as possible thus compromising its development window. The car was pushed above its performance window most of the season with the top of the cake coming with the EBD. Thisa car is just pushed way beyond its limits, causing problems on other parts. overall it might be faster, but it seems harder to drive and furthermore unpredictable.

The car being pushed beyond its limit(thus tyre performance is harmed, as well as engine/gearbox) became pretty clear last race when Hamilton complained about bad handling and bad grip and in the race before that his tyres where burning away from him. Dont take me wrong but i have never ever heard Hamilton complain about his car on board.

[Afterburner]

I think MP4-25 suspension/tyres combination it's not the best one, we can see it better at their race pace, maybe this year tyres work better with softer settings. One thing i noticed at last GP was Mclaren poor grip with front option tyers at slower corners, it's obvious a signal they were a bit puzzled with the setup and they couldn't run with the Bulls or Alonso.

[EAKMotorsports]

so you guys know how much spring they are using?

[Halgovern]

so you guys know how much spring they are using?

not enough

[kalinka]

I didn't imagine by myself McLaren's lack of targeting the right downforce for each race. There were interviews where they admit they sometimes get it wrong. With that F-ducted rear wing they can choose only rear wing angles between wings that they bring to the track. If they get it wrong in simulator before the race, they can't do anything about it after. They can't adjust the AoA of the rear wing.

Here is some prove to it : Jenson Button ( in Montreal ):
"We think that, possibly, we were a little bit too quick (through the speed trap); looking at our consistency, we are struggling a little bit, so maybe we're not running enough downforce. This morning was good but this afternoon wasn't so good, so we'll have to work on that."

Bahrein speed trap : http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2010/824/6704/speed_trap.html

I think there McLaren could sacrifice that 6-7kph of advantage to put more downforce on the car, but they didn't/couldn't. Alonso won the race, yet he was just 11th in the speed trap. And after Bahrein both Button and Lewis complained about lack of DF.

Whitmarsh on Bahrein qualy : "We sensed today that we didn't really give the best car we could have to our drivers but we'll see what we can do as a team. Maybe we haven't got enough downforce here, certainly for that middle section, and we've got to look at the job we're doing. I don't think there are any surprises and we'll see how we get on."

It's clear that they couldn't sacrifice that advantage to get mor DF.
You think that I'm just imagining that problem ? It's not sarcasm, i really want to know am I wrong here.

[timbo]

It's clear that they couldn't sacrifice that advantage to get mor DF.
You think that I'm just imagining that problem ? It's not sarcasm, i really want to know am I wrong here.

Couple of races — maybe, the whole season — no!
Actually if you watch the footage from the last race there was a camera at the exit of Curva do Sol and McLaren always seemed a bit awkward. Very pitch up attitude, bouncing hard and raising it's inner front wheel. It also was pretty clear all year that McLaren is very hard on the bumps.
So IMO they compromised their suspension too much to make their DDD work.

[ringo]

I think MP4-25 suspension/tyres combination it's not the best one, we can see it better at their race pace, maybe this year tyres work better with softer settings. One thing i noticed at last GP was Mclaren poor grip with front option tyers at slower corners, it's obvious a signal they were a bit puzzled with the setup and they couldn't run with the Bulls or Alonso.

Mclaren were foolish to redesign the whole car completely.
If it aint broke dont fix it.
They should have put the very same Mp4 24 suspension on the 25, not 1 cm in difference; the sam exact thing!
They would be much better now.
The car under steers and is too stable. It refuses to change direction.

Mp4 24 suspension, F duct + big DDD, would have given them a better chance this year. Lewis would have been able to work some magic in Singapore and Monaco at least.

[PNSD]

ringo, im sure you realize its not as simple as that.

The suspension this year deals with a car +150kg and -150Kg. The suspension is probably designed to get the most out of the tyres in terms of performance/grip and range in that rather large operating window.