Belgian GP 2011 - Spa-Francorchamps

[djos]

Seriously you guys are blind, Kamui is along side to varying degees down the entire straight, Lewis assumed he had the track to himself and was wrong! He has even admitted the accident was 100% his fault, how much more evidence do you fan bois need??????

[CHT]

Does not compute.
You are making things up.

Following driver can see more, he is responsible and has more options.
There was no wall stopping Kamui from staying out either.

Look on the Button overtakes in this race. See how each driver has mercy on him.
even webber into eau rouge with Alonso. All merciful.
This mercy is not extended when they want to get a few stripes off Hamilton.
Kamui simply couldn't execute the move. He ran out of skills and the car was unstable under braking.

I would strongly suggest that Mclaren install signal lights on Lewis car so that everyone will know when to make room for him.

[ringo]

Seriously you guys are blind, Kamui is along side to varying degees down the entire straight, Lewis assumed he had the track to himself and was wrong! He has even admitted the accident was 100% his fault, how much more evidence do you fan bois need??????

...hmm? Who's turning here?
Who has plenty enough room to the right here, who has the racing line here?

Lewis knows what's up. He'll say anything to quell the flames.

Not even an investigation into the incident, not a word. Somethings up in the stewards office. He was smart to let it be.

Now here is lap 1 with Hamilton and Massa.



why is hamilton not crashing into Massa, and he has eve less space than Kobayashi?
The man's basically on the line.

Let's be objective here guys, it's plainly obvious that Kamui ballsed up his moves.
Kobayashi doesn't have the nerves of steel, Just got a little star struck and couldn't hold it together. Chickened out after seeing the road run out of ashphalt and turned in as reflex.
Low downforce sauber, broken front wing, unstable under braking, Kamui nerves get the best of him and boom he makes contact.
Simples.

[Pup]

Beat me to it.

[archiebald]

You guys need to calm down. I studied this accident closely. The actual movements were as follows;

Lewis made a slight drift to the left. This is not unusual for him, you can often see him moving out just before a turn. I believe he was criticized in Monza last year for pushing Webber onto the grass, though it was not intentional. At the time of the incident he clearly didn't expect Kamui to be there and most importantly he had his attention on the apex.

BUT, at the same time, just before contact was made, in the front camera view it can clearly be seen that Kamui starts to turn in.

Result, in my eyes that was a racing incident contributed to by both drivers, as a result there was no-one to blame.

[ringo]

Does not compute.
You are making things up.

Following driver can see more, he is responsible and has more options.
There was no wall stopping Kamui from staying out either.

Look on the Button overtakes in this race. See how each driver has mercy on him.
even webber into eau rouge with Alonso. All merciful.
This mercy is not extended when they want to get a few stripes off Hamilton.
Kamui simply couldn't execute the move. He ran out of skills and the car was unstable under braking.

I would strongly suggest that Mclaren install signal lights on Lewis car so that everyone will know when to make room for him.

And this is the same reason these drivers get over aggressive when the BOSS comes through. They think the same thing "i'm not giving him any room, just wait till i see him!! I'll show him who's boss!"

This is responsible for these small fries losing their cool.

They're trying to overcompensate for the lack of natural agression by being agressive, which is very dangerous as that driver is not used to being agressive and controlling it.

Button in Canada is the perfect example. Trying too hard. Here we have Kobayashi trying moves he has never used before.

[ringo]

BUT, at the same time, just before contact was made, in the front camera view it can clearly be seen that Kamui starts to turn in.

Who initiated contact?

I'm a no nonsense kind of guy. Any car that touches another car is responsible for an accident.
There is never a 50/50 unless both move in exactly the same time. The track and every square inch of it is fair game for any and all cars. As long as 2 cars can fit within the track physically, there is no excuse for one to touch the other. The only reason is a skill deficit or limitation of the equipment.

Kamui contacted Hamilton by simply chickening out.
His brain sent the message to his arms to turn in becuase he saw that the road ahead was quickly turning to green grass. He quaked and yanked the wheel.
Hamilton's presence, which you think is an offense somehow, has no physical effect on Kamui's car, it only affects Kamui's perception.

So as long as KOB is within the lines and is not being progressively squeezed he has adequate room. That is what the rules imply.

I would not blame a driver for unknowingly or knowingly pressuring the other mentally, that is part of the sport and is welcome. It's how the victim cracks under pressure. Does he take out the pressurer or does he back out?

So again i ask who initiated contact and what did the other car being close to him have anything to do with him physically turning his steering wheel?

Can one's pressence/aura be blamed for another's nervous break down ?
Do the rules cover this aspect?

[wuzak]

I would have to watch that again to see the movements in the Massa/Hamilton battle. But in teh case of Hamilton/Kobayashi Hamilton passed Kobayashi on the outside and on the racing line - hugging the left hand side of the track. Kobaysahi pulled in behind and got the slipstream. Lewis then moved right to block the inside comeback move. He therefore is no longer technically able to move back to the left - but he does. It isn't a sudden move, but a gradual fade to the left.

Plainly speaking, I think Lewis forgot all about Kobayashi after he did the blocking move. He clearly didn't realise that Kobi had a run on him and was on the outside.

I dare say in the Massa incident Massa remained parallel to the edge of the track, and was fully aware of Lewis being alongside. I'd also ask - is that Massa passing Hamilton, or Hamilton passing Massa?

[raymondu999]

Actually to be fair usually when it's near the braking zone, you are kind of allowed to fade back to the racing line; though usually there isn't a car there.

[wuzak]

Re Massa vs Hamilton. Massa passed Hamilton into La Source at the race start, but Hamilton got a better run out of the hairpin and entered Eau Rouge in front. But Massa had a far better run through Eau Rouge and was along the side of Hamilton just after Radillon. From there to Les Combes they were side by side - fully aware of each other. At one point, early on the straight, Hamilton jinks right as if to block, but then realises it is too late. Both move left together after that. I presume Hamilton is getting back on the racing line to, hopefully, gain advantage into and through Les Combes. Massa takes whatever space Hamilton leaves him.

[ringo]

Lewis then moved right to block the inside comeback move. He therefore is no longer technically able to move back to the left - but he does.

Not the case in the braking zone.
And he doesn't move to block Kobayshi. He's on the racing line, look on the tyre marks on the ground before him.

It isn't a sudden move, but a gradual fade to the left.

Heh heh, sure. So you are telling me this is somehow illegal and Kamui couldn't see this?

Plainly speaking, I think Lewis forgot all about Kobayashi after he did the blocking move.

I dare say in the Massa incident Massa remained parallel to the edge of the track, and was fully aware of Lewis being alongside.

not Lewis so swith the tune. ^^

You guys sound so biased when the facts are place beofore you. A lot of "i think" when it's Hamilton, and a lot of i know when it's someone else.

There is no jinking going on from Lewis. KOB just turns into lewis.
And that issue is being skirted around.

No one wants to admit Kobayashi initiated contact.

[richard_leeds]

Now here is lap 1 with Hamilton and Massa.

why is hamilton not crashing into Massa, and he has eve less space than Kobayashi?

What line did the car in the middle take around that move and what line did the car on the kerb follow?

[HampusA]

Does not compute.
You are making things up.

Following driver can see more, he is responsible and has more options.
There was no wall stopping Kamui from staying out either.

Look on the Button overtakes in this race. See how each driver has mercy on him.
even webber into eau rouge with Alonso. All merciful.
This mercy is not extended when they want to get a few stripes off Hamilton.
Kamui simply couldn't execute the move. He ran out of skills and the car was unstable under braking.

It´s starting to become pathetic in my opinion.
You come up with these ludicrous things and always no matter what defend Hamilton.

Bottom line is Kamui should not have to move out of the way because Hamilton have no idea where Kamui is.

Hamilton said himself it was 100% his own fault. Why can´t you do aswell?
But obviously you probably have another theory now that goes completely different to what we are saying aswell as what Hamilton is saying. Afterall he was the one in the car.

[Pup]

What line did the car in the middle take around that move and what line did the car on the kerb follow?

I think the point is that Kobayashi had room to move over. Some said that he didn't, and the photo removes that argument from the equation.

I've seen it argued countless times that the driver who is behind should yield, and that the driver ahead should be able to go anywhere on track he so pleases. Usually that argument is pulled out to defend something Schumacher did, but lets keep it with Hamilton and Spa and think back to the notorious Kimi/Chicane incident.

I don't support that argument myself, at least when it comes to the edge of the track, but it's common enough. Though if one can say that it's possible for drivers to take the curb at that spot, then one cannot say that Hamilton didn't leave enough room for Kobayashi. Sorry to throw logic into the deal, but there it is.

And one also has to draw a contrast between this incident and the Hamilton's qualifying incident because there is a distinct difference between making a sudden move that another drive is unlikely to have time to react to, and a slower move when one can fully expect the driver behind to react.

[FrukostScones]

It´s starting to become pathetic in my opinion.
You come up with these ludicrous things and always no matter what defend Hamilton.

Bottom line is Kamui should not have to move out of the way because Hamilton have no idea where Kamui is.

Hamilton said himself it was 100% his own fault. Why can´t you do aswell?
But obviously you probably have another theory now that goes completely different to what we are saying aswell as what Hamilton is saying. Afterall he was the one in the car.

Do you really think that Hamilton really sees himself as the one to blame for this crash?
And even if he really is thinking that, why should we see it the same way?
I see this crash as a normal racing incindent, but a pretty stupid one not caused by Hamilton in the first place.