2012 Abu Dhabi GP - Yas Marina

[gato azul]

Good question RM999,

I think, they didn't want to push their luck in this case, similar to what Phil said.

Vettel was in lap 29 ~6.6 sec ahead of Alonso ( which just had stoped), he then lost ~1.9 sec in the next 7 laps, which on average is ~0.27 sec a lap. If we extrapolate this degradation rate for 26 laps (from lap 29 to 55), he would have lost 7.05 sec
and was only 6.6 sec ahead in lap 29, so while Alonso would have needed to make the pass, I think it is fair to say, that he would have had a good chance on his much fresher tyres.

That does not take the 2nd SC into account and assumes that SV would not have hit the "Cliff", the chance to do so, was high I would say. Could have end in an Alonso Canada scenario, SV lost ~0.5 sec from lap 34-35, which may let RBR consider that they approach the "Cliff", and decided to bring him in.

I don't think, that in their situation this gamble would have been worth the risk, but if they would have pulled it off, it sure would have been a huge moral blow to Alonso/Ferrari.

[Mandrake]

Eh? "Simply perfect" is now breaking your own front wing twice?
And yeh, I'd agree with the spanish media...
Alonso on tyres equal to buttons got passed in 1 lap.
Vettol on softer, newer tyres, with a car geared for overtaking took 5 laps.

Bob, you're probably not reading this anymore, but Alonso was faster on the straights than Button, who had his DRS wide open. Button himself confirmed that on the radio. Would you not think that this makes Alonso's overtaking incredibly easy?

Except Alonso did it before the DRS was even activated in the race, while Seb needed multiple laps and multiple DRSs to get by him.

I believe that was the actual point.

Same here as already mentioned, Vettel was not faster than Button on the straights due to Button being in Alonso's DRS zone. Did you however see how mighty Sebastian came closer under braking after the first Straight? It was amazing to look at.

NB: The only overtakings Alonso made were against Webber with a massive straight line speed advantage and against Maldonado after 20! laps.
He got past Button in the first corner, because Webber pushed Button to the outside. Not his own credit.

No bashing, just mentioning ...

+1

One last point about his "clumsiness" while overtaking....
If this was F1technical, and not F1HamiltonAlonso, one would have seen that Ricciardo'd driving was erratic. Vettel didn't drive into that DRS sign just for the fun of it. And you do not get from 24th to 3rd by cruising around and not using all the chances to overtake you can get. He damaged his front wing at Senna's car, where Senna was beside somebody else driving more towards Vettel. You never know how a race pans out, but we've seen Alonso stuck behind Petrov for a whole race, surely Seb needed to pass everyone as quickly as possible to get to that podium!

It's a shame many pre 2010 users have disappeared, the bitterness and hatred towards successful drivers is hard to stand lately....

[raymondu999]

ne would have seen that Ricciardo'd driving was erratic.

When I was watching the race, the fact that it was STR on RBR, and behind the safety car, reminded me of this quote

Well it's kids, isn't it. Kids with not enough experience, doing a good job then they --- it all up

[Mr Alcatraz]

Good question RM999,

I think, they didn't want to push their luck in this case, similar to what Phil said.

Vettel was in lap 29 ~6.6 sec ahead of Alonso ( which just had stoped), he then lost ~1.9 sec in the next 7 laps, which on average is ~0.27 sec a lap. If we extrapolate this degradation rate for 26 laps (from lap 29 to 55), he would have lost 7.05 sec
and was only 6.6 sec ahead in lap 29, so while Alonso would have needed to make the pass, I think it is fair to say, that he would have had a good chance on his much fresher tyres.

That does not take the 2nd SC into account and assumes that SV would not have hit the "Cliff", the chance to do so, was high I would say. Could have end in an Alonso Canada scenario, SV lost ~0.5 sec from lap 34-35, which may let RBR consider that they approach the "Cliff", and decided to bring him in.

I don't think, that in their situation this gamble would have been worth the risk, but if they would have pulled it off, it sure would have been a huge moral blow to Alonso/Ferrari.

Has anyone considered that the down force changes (rear wing) probably made Vettel’s car more susceptible to rear tire wear, slipping a little in corners. When using their normal set-up they are very good on conserving tires. I don't think they could make that much of a change and not have it adversely affect tire wear....but I could be wrong! Thanks for your civil response.

[raymondu999]

To be honest I don't think so. The Pirellis don't suffer much wear - they degrade through thermal. Thermal deg increases as you increase downforce, because you get more hysteresis on the straights and you corner quicker. How do I come to the conclusion they don't wear as much? Look at Singapore, Monaco, Canada. The races where the Bridgestones would wear out extremely quickly due to the heavy traction demands. They were clear 1 stoppers this year, except for Singapore. That's despite Singapore's low grip surface, and 20-odd corners, all of which basically have their own traction zone.

The decrease in downforce could actually help tyre degradation because you aren't cornering as quickly, and putting less heat through them. Of course if you have so little downforce that you're wheelspinning and locking all the time - that will heat the tyre too, and kill it through wear too. But IMO even an HRT generally has enough downforce to stop that. These cars are F1 cars - on an absolute scale, the HRT still produces massive downforce, just not on the level of the Red Bull/McLaren.

Look for example at Barcelona, Suzuka and Silverstone 2011. The Red Bull was killing the sweeper corners - and in the race they became positively slow as the stints wore on, and often had to pit earlier than their rivals.

Take 2011 to 2012. The cars have less downforce, and the tyres are softer. But even then the race strategies have averaged 1 stop less than 2011. This, in my view, is because the cars are cornering slower (due to less downforce) and thermally abusing the tyres less.

[Forza]

So what happened at the end of qualifying?

Horner "To be honest, we have no clear answer but I suspect that it was human error, Renault gave us a clear statement that we should stop the car. Because we feared that it could be something that damages the engine, we followed their instructions. We had to explain to the stewards why we stopped the car, they accepted our argument, but then we had to give the one litre sample."

Horner said Renault has not been able to explain why too little fuel was put into the RB8.

[Ral]

I'm not entirely sure what to make of RBR's attitude in all this. It has consistently been the only team on the grid publicly airing grievances with suppliers. And this time it is starting to sound a bit like finger-pointing, as if they're kindergarten kids saying "it wasn't me miss!".

If they say it was Renault who told them there was a fuel pressure issue, that's fair enough. But why continue pointing in their direction about the amount of fuel physically in the fuel cell? Even if Renault tell them the amount of fuel required, nobody from RBR thought "hang on, why are we putting in so much less fuel than in Q1 and Q2?" Or are they seriously saying that Renault runs everything to do with the engine including fuel?

And is it so important to protect the egos of people inside the team that it needs to be spelled out to the press - for all intents and purposes with name and all - exactly who was at fault outside RBR?

[mx_tifoso]

[Intego]

From when is that? Qualy?
May I ask why you post it, because Vettel uses DRS or because he is with four wheels of the circuit?
If last, several drivers did that (e.g. Alonso and Webber in the race). At some points it's tolerated when there's no advantage. Here it's a wider line.

[CHT]

Thanks Intego.

Regarding Vettel's race - is anyone else surprised he didn't try to brave it out on a 1-stopper? The upside would've been a possible P2, finishing ahead of Alonso - which would REALLY have been, as Eddie Jordan called his P3 - "a dagger in the hearts of Ferrari"

He was only (to memory) losing 2 tenths/lap to the Ferrari anyways at that point. To be fair no one could have anticipated the second safety car, but yeah.

Vettel race should have been a 1 stopper if not for the damaged front wing. To go 44 laps on the soft option tires is definitely too much a risk to take especially after he has work so hard to regain his position.

I think his race will be very different if he didnt pit for the wing change.

[mx_tifoso]

From when is that? Qualy?
May I ask why you post it, because Vettel uses DRS or because he is with four wheels of the circuit?
If last, several drivers did that (e.g. Alonso and Webber in the race). At some points it's tolerated when there's no advantage. Here it's a wider line.

I think it's from the race as per the source. And the reason I posted it was because he's completely off track, which went from being punishable by death to nothing at all.

[Intego]

Hm, it's out of T20, no DRS in the race (even without a contender).

[siskue2005]

From when is that? Qualy?
May I ask why you post it, because Vettel uses DRS or because he is with four wheels of the circuit?
If last, several drivers did that (e.g. Alonso and Webber in the race). At some points it's tolerated when there's no advantage. Here it's a wider line.

I think it's from the race as per the source. And the reason I posted it was because he's completely off track, which went from being punishable by death to nothing at all.

it is accepted at Yas marina, just like in Inida
some kerbs can be taken like that, and every single driver did that during the weekend because you can see tyremarks everywhere

[raymondu999]

Yeah, everyone was doing it.

Example:

[Phil]

I actually think that's appaling. There are clear rules that state you are not allowed to leave the track. IMO - every one of them should be policed and if necessary punished. If it happens due to driver error, then the lap time should be at least slower than a previous comparable lap (no advantage). If it becomes okay to leave the track at certain areas because everyone does it - how do you police the situations when one does it to overtake (i.e. Vettel overtaking Grosjean, then yielding back that place?).

IMO - things like this should be zero-tolerance, at least to the point that drivers will do everything to avoid leaving the track in knowing that events like these at least get investigated by the stewards.