2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

[Nomore]

Yes I've readed the first time you don't have television. Basicilly I dont care.
What I do care about is you just find it ok to illegally download the race. The program itself is legal, but downloading copyright protected content is not. Not that I care about what you do, but ranting about it on a forum is out of line and goes against forum policy.

Reported to moderators

There is no point of discussion between us since you respond me without reading what i write... I don't have tv, illegal downloading, downloading copyright, what i do....etc are not come out from my mouth...so is just loosing time.

Thanks for Discussion, have a nice day

[Vasconia]

The best analysis so far of the actual situation on F1
and he used to be on Redbull. I think his old team should learn a bit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22512693

Very good analysis from David and I almost agree on everything. I think Pirelli should reach a better balance between degradation and tyre resistance, we have seen some incidents which are quite worrying. I dont want to see a terrible accident because a tyre explodes.

On the other hand, high tyre degradation makes the races more interesting, as David has pointed a few years ago races used to be much more boring, especially if the winner was clear, even in the exciting 2010 season races were quite boring because of the lack of overtakes, only the incredible battle between 4 drivers for the championship was helping to enjoy the races, I don’t want to see endless car processions again.

Anyway I hope Pirelli will find a better balance because I want to see the drivers pushing to the limit, which is not precisely the idea behind the critics of RB and Mercedes, guys you have to do a better job with tyre management, Lotus is doing it and they have all the legitimacy to ask for tyres where you can push more, not you.

[MuseF1]

I think it's definitely an issue with the tyres. Jenson Button had quite a bit to say about it all:

"It is a right mess..."

Source: http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3373/871 ... -and-round

Oh and check out the odd type of wear on Perez's tyres at the end of the race:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fISg0MDTWk8/U ... /Tires.jpg

Now is that a Right Mess or what?

Don't think I have ever seen a tyre looking like this a thte end of a race, not even a flat-spotted one!

I believe that Perez tried to make a move on Button down at turn 10 and locked up massively.

On Alonso's last lap there was a lot of smoke down at turn 10 and Button and Perez were the next cars to be lapped. After that, Perez dropped about a second to Button by the end of that lap and finished 2.2sec behind Button by the end of the race. Crazy to see the flat-spot down to the canvas though.

[Vasconia]

For those saying that Alonso was driving 90%. On spanish press he said that he raced the 4 stints as if they were 4 qualifyings

http://motor.as.com/motor/2013/05/12/fo ... 56529.html

Also Hembery is not saying that they are doing this type of tyres not to benefit Redbull as some are saying here,
what he is saying is the only one complaining is Redbull and they can do the change but will only benefit one team, Redbull
He is finding too a bit suspicious that 2 years ago wasn't a problem but now it is a problem.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/form ... 56987.html

All of this it is more and more a smoke to cover the problems at Redbull, no showing respect when others teams are wining by own merits

This is the problem and the true behind all this discussion, and Mercedes is doing the same because Lauda knows that putting Pirelli under pressure is the only solution to (partially) solve their problems with the tyres, the german team has shown 0% capacity to do a good job in this area, shame of you Brawn and company!.

[Nomore]

This is the problem and the true behind all this discussion, and Mercedes is doing the same because Lauda knows that putting Pirelli under pressure is the only solution to (partially) solve their problems with the tyres, the german team has shown 0% capacity to do a good job in this area, shame of you Brawn and company!.

agree on principle of what they are doing
... but this is not a fair and equal way that things must be resolved

[prince]

For those saying that Alonso was driving 90%. On spanish press he said that he raced the 4 stints as if they were 4 qualifyings

http://motor.as.com/motor/2013/05/12/fo ... 56529.html

Also Hembery is not saying that they are doing this type of tyres not to benefit Redbull as some are saying here,
what he is saying is the only one complaining is Redbull and they can do the change but will only benefit one team, Redbull
He is finding too a bit suspicious that 2 years ago wasn't a problem but now it is a problem.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/form ... 56987.html

All of this it is more and more a smoke to cover the problems at Redbull, no showing respect when others teams are wining by own merits

This is the problem and the true behind all this discussion, and Mercedes is doing the same because Lauda knows that putting Pirelli under pressure is the only solution to (partially) solve their problems with the tyres, the german team has shown 0% capacity to do a good job in this area, shame of you Brawn and company!.

Whether it is Redbull, Mercedes or someone else, what is the problem if the fastest machinery wins with decent/durable tyres? Don't we think the designer of the fastest machinery should be rewarded? Do we think we need tires as a factor to limit the ability of fast machinery and level the playing field? For sure, Pirelli has to find a decent balance on the tyres. The instances where there were tyre failures on various cars, just shows that Pirelli has gone too far.

[pagatti]

Hi, this is my 1st post on this forum, but'I'm reading it from 3 months...
I'm from Italy, of course Ferrari fan..from niki lauda era....I saw my first GP in Monza at the age of twelve...
I've read everything about tyres, Pirelli, cruising GP's and so on...
I agree that F1 has introduced many things only for "show" and not for racing as DRS and "difficult to use" tyres but I think that it's a situation that equal for all teams. i.e. tyres are the same for all teams.
Now, is some teams it's less able than others in compromising speed vs durability, it's not fault of Pirelli, Fia or others, but of the team.
Since I remember, F1 has always been a compromise:
in Lauda era no one could drive 100% for all GP since reliabilty was bad, in turbo era BMW ran in qual with 1000 horses, and probably is GP were only 80 km long Piquet could win the championship in june... but they ran with only 750 Hp in GP to make engine last 300 km.
There was the era of 150 liters of fuel for all GP, some had a good compromise between consumption and speed and won GPs, some not, and arrived 1 minute after the 1st or did not finish...
Now it's more difficult, I agree, but some team, like Ferrari in Spain did the job well and some not like RB.
I think there are only few races in F1 history in which everybody was 100% all the time, so situation now is more or less the same...
I remember lots of signal "slow" for drivers, but now it's more "dramatic" because we listen to a lot of radio communications...

[Vasconia]

For those saying that Alonso was driving 90%. On spanish press he said that he raced the 4 stints as if they were 4 qualifyings

http://motor.as.com/motor/2013/05/12/fo ... 56529.html

Also Hembery is not saying that they are doing this type of tyres not to benefit Redbull as some are saying here,
what he is saying is the only one complaining is Redbull and they can do the change but will only benefit one team, Redbull
He is finding too a bit suspicious that 2 years ago wasn't a problem but now it is a problem.

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/form ... 56987.html

All of this it is more and more a smoke to cover the problems at Redbull, no showing respect when others teams are wining by own merits

This is the problem and the true behind all this discussion, and Mercedes is doing the same because Lauda knows that putting Pirelli under pressure is the only solution to (partially) solve their problems with the tyres, the german team has shown 0% capacity to do a good job in this area, shame of you Brawn and company!.

Whether it is Redbull, Mercedes or someone else, what is the problem if the fastest machinery wins with decent/durable tyres? Don't we think the designer of the fastest machinery should be rewarded? Do we think we need tires as a factor to limit the ability of fast machinery and level the playing field? For sure, Pirelli has to find a decent balance on the tyres. The instances where there were tyre failures on various cars, just shows that Pirelli has gone too far.

Yes, Pirelly has to study and solve this problem in the name of the safety. But teams have to build a truly fast car, and this is the one who can go fast using the tyres properly, and under some conditions Lotus and Ferrari are faster, so Rb and especially Mercedes have to work hard in order to have a better car.

F1 is not only about pure speed but also about building a car which is capable of going fast but also of using in the most efficient way the tyres, fuel consume and being reliable.

[Nomore]

yes i would have noticed the same thing we all noticed, apart from you it seems...we all noticed vettel not putting up a fight to defend his 2nd place

Let's first ban the radio transmission and then we will see if we notice something or not.

if Ferrari release a radio transcript about the SPA francorchamps 2000 :

"Let him pass Michael, let him pass we need to save X thing..."

What will be your opinion about one of the most exciting overtake in Formula 1.
i guess for you, when vettel gets overtaken is because he let them go and not because someone is faster then him

how about the majority of the drivers stating there is an issue, even Button, widely considered as being relatively gentle on the tires? Is it just me, or is really everyone around and inside the F1-scene talking about these tires? It must be all of us being blind, and just you being the only one to see the clear picture then? Did u notice that everyone on here is also talking about the tires being too much of a determing factor for the race result? It amazes me how you can ignore such an obvious problem in F1...these cars are racing only 5seconds quickers than a GP3 car

Or maybe is because you get influenced form what your favorite team says.

For me it's fine, it was fine in 2011, it was fine in 2012 it's fine in 2013. Cars never pushed 100% never, there are to much factor to think: tyre, engine, strategy, fuel, driving style..etc
For me personally as the tyres are the same for everyone it's ok. But i completely dislike or hate when someone makes unfair changes.

These talk about tires has a name and a surname : Adrian Newey...he started all is the Australian gp, when they got beaten by Ferrari.
Newey is a great profesionist with out no doubt, but as a person i must agree with what Nikolas Tombazis said a few weeks ago.Red Bull is a true machine in dis-informing the public opinion, they have power in the media, power in the formula 1 management and are economically very strong.

The cars are racing more or less in the same level of 2012 and 2011. nothing special.

[PABLOEING]

Jon Noble @NobleF1
So, a 2011 Spanish GP where Vettel wins on 4 stops is ace. This year he stops 4 times and it's the end of 'racing'. Am I missing something?

[PABLOEING]

Jon Noble @NobleF1
So, a 2011 Spanish GP where Vettel wins on 4 stops is ace. This year he stops 4 times and it's the end of 'racing'. Am I missing something?

[tranquility2k4]

Jon Noble @NobleF1
So, a 2011 Spanish GP where Vettel wins on 4 stops is ace. This year he stops 4 times and it's the end of 'racing'. Am I missing something?

Yes he is missing something. The difference is that Vettel did 4 stops in 2011 but was largely pushing on the limit for most of the race. I'm sure if he drove the car like he did during the 2013 race then he could have done 2 or 3 stops but it would be a lot slower and Hamilton would have easily won the race by doing 4 stops on the limit. I really enjoyed the 2011 race as Hamilton was pushing Vettel right until the last lap and they were clearly both pushing very hard. If you drove on the limit as they did in the 2011 race with these 2013 tyres then as RB have said you would end up needing to do a 7 or 8 stop race or something ridiculous. It's as Webber said, there's only 5 laps a weekend you get to push the tyre to the limit. They had to nurse tyres in 2011 but no where near to the same extent. You didn't have the drivers coming off-throttle in turn 3 and 9 EVERY lap. It's ridiculous.

I do not care about a 4 stop race, but maybe because someone has decided to do 4 stop to push the tyre to the limit because they have that pure speed against someone who is slower doing less stops, but with the current tyres you are forced to do 4 stops and still go round like a tortoise.

[Neno]

Jon Noble @NobleF1
So, a 2011 Spanish GP where Vettel wins on 4 stops is ace. This year he stops 4 times and it's the end of 'racing'. Am I missing something?

Yup, Vettel and Red Bull are not winners...

[Redragon]

Jon Noble @NobleF1
So, a 2011 Spanish GP where Vettel wins on 4 stops is ace. This year he stops 4 times and it's the end of 'racing'. Am I missing something?

Yes he is missing something. The difference is that Vettel did 4 stops in 2011 but was largely pushing on the limit for most of the race. I'm sure if he drove the car like he did during the 2013 race then he could have done 2 or 3 stops but it would be a lot slower and Hamilton would have easily won the race by doing 4 stops on the limit. I really enjoyed the 2011 race as Hamilton was pushing Vettel right until the last lap and they were clearly both pushing very hard. If you drove on the limit as they did in the 2011 race with these 2013 tyres then as RB have said you would end up needing to do a 7 or 8 stop race or something ridiculous. It's as Webber said, there's only 5 laps a weekend you get to push the tyre to the limit. They had to nurse tyres in 2011 but no where near to the same extent. You didn't have the drivers coming off-throttle in turn 3 and 9 EVERY lap. It's ridiculous.

I do not care about a 4 stop race, but maybe because someone has decided to do 4 stop to push the tyre to the limit because they have that pure speed against someone who is slower doing less stops, but with the current tyres you are forced to do 4 stops and still go round like a tortoise.

Ok I am gonna publish the link of after race interview from Alonso again, he was commited to 4 stops from the beginning and he was not a tortoise or at least it is what you deduce from his words.

http://motor.as.com/motor/2013/05/12/fo ... 56529.html Sorry, I try to publish english version if it not in english try to tranlate it with google chrome

Comparation about average speed/time on total time from last year to this one on 4 out of the first 5 races. http://www.marca.com/2013/05/14/motor/f ... 24956.html source marca

Australia

2012 Button 195 km/h total time 1:34:09.565
2013 Raikonnen 204 km/h total time 1:30:03 225

China

2012 Rosberg 224 km/h total time 1:36:26.929
2013 Alo 224 km/h total time 1:36:26.945

Bahrain

2012 Vettel 228 km/h total time 1:35:10.490
2013 Vettel 224 Km/h total time 1:36:00.498

Barcelona

2012 Maldonado 220 km/h total time 1:39:09.145
2013 Alonso 220 km/h total time 1:39:16.596

As you can see all the timings average speed distance it is more or less same as last year. Except Kimi in Australia who was really fast this year in comparation on last year.
So I don't buy that this year are not racing to the limit it was the same as last year. Last year it wasn't a problem this year is. All of this it is just smoke to cover the real problems at Merc and Redbull.

I hope with the new changes from Canada are only slightly to make them a bit more secure but the compound stays the same even it is a bit harder.

[turbof1]

Jon Noble @NobleF1
So, a 2011 Spanish GP where Vettel wins on 4 stops is ace. This year he stops 4 times and it's the end of 'racing'. Am I missing something?

Yes he is missing something. The difference is that Vettel did 4 stops in 2011 but was largely pushing on the limit for most of the race. I'm sure if he drove the car like he did during the 2013 race then he could have done 2 or 3 stops but it would be a lot slower and Hamilton would have easily won the race by doing 4 stops on the limit. I really enjoyed the 2011 race as Hamilton was pushing Vettel right until the last lap and they were clearly both pushing very hard. If you drove on the limit as they did in the 2011 race with these 2013 tyres then as RB have said you would end up needing to do a 7 or 8 stop race or something ridiculous. It's as Webber said, there's only 5 laps a weekend you get to push the tyre to the limit. They had to nurse tyres in 2011 but no where near to the same extent. You didn't have the drivers coming off-throttle in turn 3 and 9 EVERY lap. It's ridiculous.

I do not care about a 4 stop race, but maybe because someone has decided to do 4 stop to push the tyre to the limit because they have that pure speed against someone who is slower doing less stops, but with the current tyres you are forced to do 4 stops and still go round like a tortoise.

Ok I am gonna publish the link of after race interview from Alonso again, he was commited to 4 stops from the beginning and he was not a tortoise or at least it is what you deduce from his words.

http://motor.as.com/motor/2013/05/12/fo ... 56529.html Sorry, I try to publish english version if it not in english try to tranlate it with google chrome

Comparation about average speed/time on total time from last year to this one on 4 out of the first 5 races. http://www.marca.com/2013/05/14/motor/f ... 24956.html source marca

Australia

2012 Button 195 km/h total time 1:34:09.565
2013 Raikonnen 204 km/h total time 1:30:03 225

China

2012 Rosberg 224 km/h total time 1:36:26.929
2013 Alo 224 km/h total time 1:36:26.945

Bahrain

2012 Vettel 228 km/h total time 1:35:10.490
2013 Vettel 224 Km/h total time 1:36:00.498

Barcelona

2012 Maldonado 220 km/h total time 1:39:09.145
2013 Alonso 220 km/h total time 1:39:16.596

As you can see all the timings average speed distance it is more or less same as last year. Except Kimi in Australia who was really fast this year in comparation on last year.
So I don't buy that this year are not racing to the limit it was the same as last year. Last year it wasn't a problem this year is. All of this it is just smoke to cover the real problems at Merc and Redbull.

I hope with the new changes from Canada are only slightly to make them a bit more secure but the compound stays the same even it is a bit harder.

Being faster does not mean the tyre degredation/wear is less. We know the tyres have a higher peak performance, and that the cars themselves are faster too.

In the end it is the difference between peak performance and the performance you can get out of the tyres at a given moment that declares how much % you are driving from your ultimate pace. It could very well be that last years tyres were slower, but wear less. How fast you can finish the race is a total different matter, it only shows the average speed, but not the variance from that speed.

We need ALL the laptimes of this year and last year to get a much better understanding into this.