2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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fiohaa
fiohaa
8
Joined: 19 Apr 2012, 21:18

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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its not even remotely important how many stops anyone did......couldnt care less if it was 2 stops or 10.
what is important is exactly what Coulthard says in his article........
" All tyres get slower through their lives. I never knew an F1 tyre that did not have a peak of performance when it was new and then degraded and wore out as you drove on it
What does seem to be completely clear, though, is that the drivers are not pushing right to the limit in the race. To what degree, depends on who you listen to. But after winning the race on Sunday, Alonso said he had been pushing at 90% most of the way.
In my whole career, I very rarely drove at only 90%. Usually, I'd be coughing up a lung. During my very first win, I remember thinking that if Michael Schumacher behind me didn't slow down, I was going to crash because I couldn't keep the pace up.
Most of the time, chasing my team-mate Mika Hakkinen - as I usually was, unfortunately - I couldn't go any faster. Not because I was having to manage the tyres, but because I physically could not go any faster within the grip the tyres generated.
There are many sports that are not about extreme physical endeavour, but F1 has for me always been about man and machine taken to the limit, and if you go beyond that limit there is damage or there is death. Of course, F1 is still dangerous, but that gladiatorial aspect has been lessened."
" Not everyone is complaining about the current situation, but many of those who are remember the refuelling days, which ended after 2009, when drivers were able to lap in the race within two seconds of their qualifying time.
Even in 2010, the last year of Bridgestone tyres, race lap times were usually within two seconds of qualifying times.
On Sunday in Spain, the fastest lap was 5.5secs slower than the pole time.
That's because the drivers are not pushing to the peak of the aerodynamic performance of the car because the tyres do not allow them to. Do that, and the tyre's performance drops off too quickly. In the past, the tyres were more consistent.
As recently as 2009, I remember Alonso asking for the Singapore Grand Prix race distance to be shortened because everyone was physically spent after the first race there in 2008. No-one asks that anymore because the extreme physicality has gone out of it. Drivers go several seconds a lap slower and manage their tyres."

I cannot put it any better myself. If people genuinly prefer this kind of tyre based racing, i do not see how they enjoy racing. What we have currently is a completely different sport to the sprint based formula of racing.

Jonnycraig
Jonnycraig
6
Joined: 12 Apr 2013, 20:48

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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A salient point also is that in 2011, the allocation was Soft/Hard. In 2013, Medium/Hard.

Imagine how many stops we would've seen if Pirelli had brought the soft along. :shock:

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turbof1
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Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Jonnycraig wrote:A salient point also is that in 2011, the allocation was Soft/Hard. In 2013, Medium/Hard.

Imagine how many stops we would've seen if Pirelli had brought the soft along. :shock:
Same amount. But people would be only driving the hard tyre after the first stint.
#AeroFrodo

Jonnycraig
Jonnycraig
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Joined: 12 Apr 2013, 20:48

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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turbof1 wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote:A salient point also is that in 2011, the allocation was Soft/Hard. In 2013, Medium/Hard.

Imagine how many stops we would've seen if Pirelli had brought the soft along. :shock:
Same amount. But people would be only driving the hard tyre after the first stint.
With the soft the way it has been so far this season, you'd be looking at a stop on lap 4 or 5 for hards. Few if any teams couldve done 60+ laps on 3 sets of hards.

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turbof1
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Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Jonnycraig wrote:
turbof1 wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote:A salient point also is that in 2011, the allocation was Soft/Hard. In 2013, Medium/Hard.

Imagine how many stops we would've seen if Pirelli had brought the soft along. :shock:
Same amount. But people would be only driving the hard tyre after the first stint.
With the soft the way it has been so far this season, you'd be looking at a stop on lap 4 or 5 for hards. Few if any teams couldve done 60+ laps on 3 sets of hards.
People were already getting to the pits around lap 8 for changing their tyres. 1 extra lap per hard tyre. Pretty much possible.
#AeroFrodo

tranquility2k4
tranquility2k4
20
Joined: 22 Feb 2013, 14:14

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Jonnycraig wrote:A salient point also is that in 2011, the allocation was Soft/Hard. In 2013, Medium/Hard.

Imagine how many stops we would've seen if Pirelli had brought the soft along. :shock:


Few of you missing the point, what we ended up with was a medium and super-hard. They revised the hard compound for Spain remember. So yes if we had Soft and original 2012 hard I think we'd have had a 5 or 6 stop race lol's.

tranquility2k4
tranquility2k4
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Joined: 22 Feb 2013, 14:14

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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What I don't get is this whole thing of "we have to slow cars down for safety" - when was it even proven that a car was going so fast that it was unsafe. If they stopped changing the regs to make the cars "safer" then we'd have cars lapping Barcelona in 1min 16 or something but I'm sure it would still be as safe and maybe they could bring tyres to allow them to go hell for leather during the race and have an epic race on the limit, over taking or not. This would be F1 - this would be the pinnacle of motorsport!

SaveMeHollywood
SaveMeHollywood
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 03:29

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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motobaleno wrote:imho most of you completely miss the real reason why present races are by far better than past years:
it's not a matter of overtakings: overtakings are only a consequence. the real reason is that the GAPS during the race can vary!
Processional races were not only racers without overtaking but most of all were races where the cars in the circuit were invariably ordered in terms of their fixed performances so BEFORE the race you already knew what was going to happen.
it was really really rare that for instance the driver in 4 position was faster than the 3 or the 2 and so on, so you didn't have thrill. what you have now that you hadn' t in the past is THAT THINGS CAN CHANGE! that's a lot more than simply overtakings...in the past things could change only if there was rain, safety cars, accidents...
I for one always though the point of Motor Racing.. the reason human beings sat in motor cars to have contests ... was not "Hey! Let's go drive our wagons at full speed and see how often things change!"

The point was, and always will be: "Let's sit in these things, go as fast as we can go, and we'll see WHO IS THE FASTEST?"
If they can't go as fast as they are supposed to go? Then that's not racing, it is some kind of American Gladiators event.

If one or two teams are the fastest? It's up to everyone else to go faster. That is another important point. The development to improve technology and performance has been at the heart of Grand Prix racing in particular. Porsche's comment recently that it could not see the correlation of the current formula to road cars is telling. As is the comment of Jenson Button that the performance levels now are within the depths of the support races and lower formulae.

To wit, nobody complained about this during the "wars" that went on in the 80's and the 90's with the Mansell, Prost, Senna, Hakkinen, and Schumacher. The Schumacher domination is explained simply. Hakkinen retired and there was a drought of talent to fight Schumacher and his Ferrari.

If you take the current crop of closely matched drivers: Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Button, Raikkonen, Webber... and place the regulations back to what they were in the mid-90's or even in the early 2000's.... you'd probably still get a lot of barnstorming races. In fact, if they bring back the 6-place point system, the championship would be easier to follow.

The point is that many of the teams struggling now could probably fight closer to the front:

1) Red Bull would have high amount of DF but stop frequently, so they'd be often using the Softs.
2) Lotus, being gentle on tires will stop less than other front runners, on the same engine as Red Bull, probably opting for Hards.
3) Mercedes would be similar to Red Bull
4) Ferrari would have variable strategy, potentially mixing up every race (as they did in the Schumacher era, surprising with one stoppers or 4 stoppers).
5) In the old rules, McLaren would have used its testing might to help bridge the gap.

In fact, the unlimited testing rules would have allowed performance to come together faster. Why? If you see Red Bull or Ferrari doing something that works ... it goes around pretty quickly cause everybody can test. Remember those McLaren Chimneys back in the early 2000's? They eventually got around.

Teams are pretty good at shaking things up by themselves.

The concept of trying to shake things up artificially has always yielded limited results. Ron Dennis had a quote for the teams that never break the Top 10: "These are the guys who always complain about performance but in reality they'd never make it even if you changed the rules or gave them a lot of money." And he's right. You'll never see a shake up large enough for example that would result in Marussia winning a race outright - not even with these Pirelli Glass Tyres.

Yet, I remember one time when an Arrows nailed pole position in Magny Cours because of the weather! It was a special moment in the bridgestone era (that is of course credited to weather and luck) but funnily enough, I don't see it happening again with these Caterham or Marussia teams in this Pirelli era, don't you?

Oh and that STR victory in Monza with Vettel? That wasn't down to tyres either. His team bet on the weather - and won.

There was nothing ever wrong with F1. I for one think if they hit the reset and we go back to the early 2000's rules, complete with free-for-all qualifying, we'd have a blast of a season because all the drivers are talented and the engineering talent is spread out as well.

prince
prince
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Joined: 01 Mar 2012, 11:22

Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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Redragon wrote:
tranquility2k4 wrote:
Yes he is missing something. The difference is that Vettel did 4 stops in 2011 but was largely pushing on the limit for most of the race. I'm sure if he drove the car like he did during the 2013 race then he could have done 2 or 3 stops but it would be a lot slower and Hamilton would have easily won the race by doing 4 stops on the limit. I really enjoyed the 2011 race as Hamilton was pushing Vettel right until the last lap and they were clearly both pushing very hard. If you drove on the limit as they did in the 2011 race with these 2013 tyres then as RB have said you would end up needing to do a 7 or 8 stop race or something ridiculous. It's as Webber said, there's only 5 laps a weekend you get to push the tyre to the limit. They had to nurse tyres in 2011 but no where near to the same extent. You didn't have the drivers coming off-throttle in turn 3 and 9 EVERY lap. It's ridiculous.

I do not care about a 4 stop race, but maybe because someone has decided to do 4 stop to push the tyre to the limit because they have that pure speed against someone who is slower doing less stops, but with the current tyres you are forced to do 4 stops and still go round like a tortoise.
Ok I am gonna publish the link of after race interview from Alonso again, he was commited to 4 stops from the beginning and he was not a tortoise or at least it is what you deduce from his words.

http://motor.as.com/motor/2013/05/12/fo ... 56529.html Sorry, I try to publish english version if it not in english try to tranlate it with google chrome

Comparation about average speed/time on total time from last year to this one on 4 out of the first 5 races. http://www.marca.com/2013/05/14/motor/f ... 24956.html source marca

Australia

2012 Button 195 km/h total time 1:34:09.565
2013 Raikonnen 204 km/h total time 1:30:03 225

China

2012 Rosberg 224 km/h total time 1:36:26.929
2013 Alo 224 km/h total time 1:36:26.945

Bahrain

2012 Vettel 228 km/h total time 1:35:10.490
2013 Vettel 224 Km/h total time 1:36:00.498

Barcelona

2012 Maldonado 220 km/h total time 1:39:09.145
2013 Alonso 220 km/h total time 1:39:16.596

As you can see all the timings average speed distance it is more or less same as last year. Except Kimi in Australia who was really fast this year in comparation on last year.
So I don't buy that this year are not racing to the limit it was the same as last year. Last year it wasn't a problem this year is. All of this it is just smoke to cover the real problems at Merc and Redbull.

I hope with the new changes from Canada are only slightly to make them a bit more secure but the compound stays the same even it is a bit harder.
Your comparison is actually giving you a great picture. We all know that teams slogged their asses off and have added good chunk of speeds to their 2013 cars, but only to realize that the results are same because there are other limiting factors. Had they knew the times are going to be same in 2013 compared to 2012, they could have taken good break for 3 months, enjoyed with their families, come back with the same 2012 car and run. Isn't it?

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iotar__
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Joined: 28 Sep 2012, 12:31

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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tranquility2k4 wrote:
Jonnycraig wrote:A salient point also is that in 2011, the allocation was Soft/Hard. In 2013, Medium/Hard.

Imagine how many stops we would've seen if Pirelli had brought the soft along. :shock:


Few of you missing the point, what we ended up with was a medium and super-hard. They revised the hard compound for Spain remember. So yes if we had Soft and original 2012 hard I think we'd have had a 5 or 6 stop race lol's.
How about twenty on supersofts and softs, since we are in an impossible to prove fantasy land? Anything goes to make an exaggerated point? First stint on options was rather short anyway and Rosberg with a horrible, tyre eating Mercedes ended up sixth on 3 stops.

I repeat that those time wasting, tyre whining discussion is some sort of alternative world. I can't prove it but I'm certain that for many fans, hardcore or not, it was a fairly normal F1 race. Yes with a rather extreme tyre degradation/management for some, which only amplified differences. But worry not, real racing returns in Canada.

I also think It's a bit unfair to Alonso to only talk about the tyres. After re-watching some parts, it wasn't a straightforward win early on. It was close getting in front of Vettel after pitstops, then quickly Rosberg. Then of course Vettel did not have the pace and Raikkonen was behind and on long stints and different tyres. For the first lap pass alone the race was worth watching.

Also interesting: Whitmarsh says it wasn't a team order. I believe him, why not? They have bigger problems than driver egos at the moment.

hendrix
hendrix
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 09:30

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Pirelli said that tyres will be changed for Canada. All those little boys and girls crying and the money of the energetic drinks has been enough.
Don´t worry Seb, if your car is not good with the tires I will buy you another tires =D> http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107421

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Redragon
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Joined: 24 May 2011, 12:23

Re: 2013 Monaco Grand Prix

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prince wrote:
Redragon wrote:
tranquility2k4 wrote:
Yes he is missing something. The difference is that Vettel did 4 stops in 2011 but was largely pushing on the limit for most of the race. I'm sure if he drove the car like he did during the 2013 race then he could have done 2 or 3 stops but it would be a lot slower and Hamilton would have easily won the race by doing 4 stops on the limit. I really enjoyed the 2011 race as Hamilton was pushing Vettel right until the last lap and they were clearly both pushing very hard. If you drove on the limit as they did in the 2011 race with these 2013 tyres then as RB have said you would end up needing to do a 7 or 8 stop race or something ridiculous. It's as Webber said, there's only 5 laps a weekend you get to push the tyre to the limit. They had to nurse tyres in 2011 but no where near to the same extent. You didn't have the drivers coming off-throttle in turn 3 and 9 EVERY lap. It's ridiculous.

I do not care about a 4 stop race, but maybe because someone has decided to do 4 stop to push the tyre to the limit because they have that pure speed against someone who is slower doing less stops, but with the current tyres you are forced to do 4 stops and still go round like a tortoise.
Ok I am gonna publish the link of after race interview from Alonso again, he was commited to 4 stops from the beginning and he was not a tortoise or at least it is what you deduce from his words.

http://motor.as.com/motor/2013/05/12/fo ... 56529.html Sorry, I try to publish english version if it not in english try to tranlate it with google chrome

Comparation about average speed/time on total time from last year to this one on 4 out of the first 5 races. http://www.marca.com/2013/05/14/motor/f ... 24956.html source marca

Australia

2012 Button 195 km/h total time 1:34:09.565
2013 Raikonnen 204 km/h total time 1:30:03 225

China

2012 Rosberg 224 km/h total time 1:36:26.929
2013 Alo 224 km/h total time 1:36:26.945

Bahrain

2012 Vettel 228 km/h total time 1:35:10.490
2013 Vettel 224 Km/h total time 1:36:00.498

Barcelona

2012 Maldonado 220 km/h total time 1:39:09.145
2013 Alonso 220 km/h total time 1:39:16.596

As you can see all the timings average speed distance it is more or less same as last year. Except Kimi in Australia who was really fast this year in comparation on last year.
So I don't buy that this year are not racing to the limit it was the same as last year. Last year it wasn't a problem this year is. All of this it is just smoke to cover the real problems at Merc and Redbull.

I hope with the new changes from Canada are only slightly to make them a bit more secure but the compound stays the same even it is a bit harder.
Your comparison is actually giving you a great picture. We all know that teams slogged their asses off and have added good chunk of speeds to their 2013 cars, but only to realize that the results are same because there are other limiting factors. Had they knew the times are going to be same in 2013 compared to 2012, they could have taken good break for 3 months, enjoyed with their families, come back with the same 2012 car and run. Isn't it?
The funny thing is that are more or less same timings back on 2009 where bridgestone and double diffuser were in place.
Counting how much the FIA has try to slow this cars since. I believe this cars are really fast.

Also Ted on his notebook said that the strategy of three stops was suppossed to be 6 seconds faster (don't know with pit stop timing included, I guess it is) And Alonso finished 10 seconds ahead with his last stint nursing the tyres. That IMO means he was driving at his limit. Also he commented that Rosberg could have finish in better position if he would have done 4 stops. Ferrari victory in Bacelona was based on the right call on strategy. Something that Redbull can't swallow. I would love to see the real technical stuff from Redbull (Newey) talking about that tyre problems, no the politicians horner and redbull owner.
Now it is confirmed that the change will be made. I agree 4 stops it is far too much. But I hope the changes will not benefit only one team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsH9gl-uBgk

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Vasconia
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Joined: 30 Aug 2012, 10:45
Location: Basque Country

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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hendrix wrote:Pirelli said that tyres will be changed for Canada. All those little boys and girls crying and the money of the energetic drinks has been enough.
Don´t worry Seb, if your car is not good with the tires I will buy you another tires =D> http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107421
Sad but true, anyway incidents like the one that one Force India suffered the last weekend has forced too Pireli to change the tyres.

Anyway, this modification is clearly an adulteration of the competition, and a complete nonsense.

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motobaleno
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Joined: 31 Mar 2011, 13:58

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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Vasconia wrote: Anyway, this modification is clearly an adulteration of the competition, and a complete nonsense.
Acutally it isn't "nonsense" it has much sense. Unfortunately this sense is completely fraudolent...but that's life you know...

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Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: 2013 Spanish Grand Prix - Barcelona

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This is still going? It's done and dusted. Tyres will be changed. How much, time will tell.