2014 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal

[Phil]

For what it's worth - *I* don't think Massa is *faultless*. But I do believe, especially considering the GIF I posted further up where you can see the twitch to the left, that Perez has a higher portion of blame. For the record, Perez knew he was driving with issues and was defending against quicker cars. Ricciardo was one of them, Vettel another. Further back, Massa was in a much quicker car. In light of this, you must assume Perez must have been aware that others would launch an attempt at passing him. He is free to block as long as no one is beside him, but doing that while a car is next to you will obviously cause an instant collision.

[mnmracer]

It depends if Massa knew that Perez had brake issues or not.

If he did, it would be wise to give him a little more space, certainly since he already had the inside corner anyway.
If he did not though, there is nothing wrong; he left enough space for a well-functioning Formula 1 car, certainly considering Vettel had an even tighter line.

[beelsebob]

It depends if Massa knew that Perez had brake issues or not.

If he did, it would be wise to give him a little more space, certainly since he already had the inside corner anyway.
If he did not though, there is nothing wrong; he left enough space for a well-functioning Formula 1 car, certainly considering Vettel had an even tighter line.

Indeed, I'm not quite sure what Massa was meant to do differently here? Was he meant to not try to overtake someone?

[RZS10]

It depends if Massa knew that Perez had brake issues or not.

If he did, it would be wise to give him a little more space, certainly since he already had the inside corner anyway.
If he did not though, there is nothing wrong; he left enough space for a well-functioning Formula 1 car, certainly considering Vettel had an even tighter line.

Indeed, I'm not quite sure what Massa was meant to do differently here? Was he meant to not try to overtake someone?

Well Massa easily left two car widths on his right side ... i think that Perez was handed a penalty because he first turned right in order to follow the racing line and then changed the steering angle to the left and went straight into Massas' path, in this case it is totally irrelevant if he actually steered 'left' - his car went left relative to the track and ideal racing line after first going right for a very short period of time, had he not turned right he might not have been penalized.

[mnmracer]

It depends if Massa knew that Perez had brake issues or not.

If he did, it would be wise to give him a little more space, certainly since he already had the inside corner anyway.
If he did not though, there is nothing wrong; he left enough space for a well-functioning Formula 1 car, certainly considering Vettel had an even tighter line.

Indeed, I'm not quite sure what Massa was meant to do differently here? Was he meant to not try to overtake someone?

Well Massa easily left two car widths on his right side ... i think that Perez was handed a penalty because he first turned right in order to follow the racing line and then changed the steering angle to the left and went straight into Massas' path, in this case it is totally irrelevant if he actually steered 'left' - his car went left relative to the track and ideal racing line after first going right for a very short period of time, had he not turned right he might not have been penalized.

Agree.

[e30ernest]

Perez did move his steering wheel slightly left just moments before impact:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BObcBrAe-ro

See the 24 second mark on that video. From moving slightly right (following the track) he moved slightly left as compared to the top of the edge of his cockpit. It's not much, but at the steering ratios and the speed these cars are going, that slight steering angle can translate to a fair amount of change in direction.

At the speed things happened, I don't think Massa could have reacted on time. He was just too near and closing in at great speed on a car that braked early while turning into his line. Massa cannot move further into the left IMO. He was trying to pass. Moving too far left would move him out of the ideal line and into the dirty side of the track.

Remember, at these speeds, reaction time is significantly lower, and sudden changes in direction while braking to avoid a sudden hazard in front of you is much more involved than simply moving your steering wheel. If Massa had more time to react, then he could have avoided Perez, but this was just to close and he did not have enough time.

[Pierce89]

Perez did move his steering wheel slightly left just moments before impact:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BObcBrAe-ro

See the 24 second mark on that video. From moving slightly right (following the track) he moved slightly left as compared to the top of the edge of his cockpit. It's not much, but at the steering ratios and the speed these cars are going, that slight steering angle can translate to a fair amount of change in direction.

At the speed things happened, I don't think Massa could have reacted on time. He was just too near and closing in at great speed on a car that braked early while turning into his line. Massa cannot move further into the left IMO. He was trying to pass. Moving too far left would move him out of the ideal line and into the dirty side of the track.

Remember, at these speeds, reaction time is significantly lower, and sudden changes in direction while braking to avoid a sudden hazard in front of you is much more involved than simply moving your steering wheel. If Massa had more time to react, then he could have avoided Perez, but this was just to close and he did not have enough time.

My only issue is, that were the roles reversed, I don't feel a penalty would've been handed down.

[e30ernest]

Why not? I think the outcome would have been the same given the severity and speed of the impact. I don't think Massa (and Williams) has enough clout nowadays to affect the stewards I think? If it were a Merc, Ferrari, RB or McLaren then maybe there's potential they'd get away with a slap on the wrist.

[SiLo]

Are we still arguing this? It's MOSTLY the fault of Perez, and SLIGHTLY the fault of Massa. Perez WAS FOLLOWING THE RACING LINE around the slight curve into turn one and then STOPS FOLLOWING THE RACING LINE all of a sudden.

Thats what the stewards are saying, that's what the videos and GIFs show, and if I'm not mistaken, that's what happened.

Case closed.

[mertol]

This however is not a reason for penalty or the cause of the accident.

[beelsebob]

This however is not a reason for penalty or the cause of the accident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSh2tA93wmw

I'm not sure why you're linking this video. He explicitly states in it that he is ignoring the data the stewards had. He explicitly states that the stewards know that Massa was hit from the side, but that his hypothesis is based on the assumption that this did not happen.

He also explains that the Stewards, based on the knowledge that sergio moved sideways, and that the side of his car hit Massa, ruled that sergio broke rule 16.1.

It also does not matter whether the move was deliberately to block Massa or not, it is illegal to make a move that causes a collision.

[djos]

This however is not a reason for penalty or the cause of the accident.

Jeez, you still going on about this!!!

[CHT]

What I've seen it seems more of a racing incident than anything else. Perez had to react to the car in front, and thus had to go to the left to overtake him. Massa didn't react quick enough to this and collided.

I wouldn't put the blame on anyone here, but I'd say it was more of a driver error from Massa than anything else. Perez had to move to the left, and thus Massa should have too.

This is what i felt too. Perez was trying to regain his podium position by late braking Vettel on the inside, not trying to block Massa. And Massa just happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

[thomin]

I still maintain that it was a racing incident and I'm glad Peter Windsor agrees, even though he probably still feels close to Williams. Perez might have slightly more blame on his shoulders than Massa, but Massa was in a better position to avoid the crash by simply leaving more room.

[djos]

I agree it was a racing incident but the stewards penalized Perez for causing the crash - in such a high speed section and knowing he was under attack from Massa, he should have been paying more attention to what was happening around him.

If you are having braking issues, why would you not stay in the racing groove where there is less debris and a better rubbered in surface to help your breaking?