2016 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal, Fri 10 – Sun 12 Jun

[Phil]

Schuttelberg, I hope you don't mind, but I replied to you in the Mercedes team thread... it just seems more appropriate given the topic was raised in there by someone else.

[Andres125sx]

Rosberg can´t fight wheel to wheel. You can´t win a WDC like this, specially if your team mate is that good. I like the guy, but as a driver I´m afraid he´s several steps down Lewis

What a race for Carlos!. On a power track, with a year old Ferrari PU, he managed to climb from p20 to p9 and score 2 point, impressive. Kvyat countdown in F1 is accelerating

The question is...what would have happened if Nico would have done the same?

You don´t need to figure it out, he did exactly the same only two races ago, only difference is Nico move cost 43 points to the team (ruined an easy 1-2), while Lewis one only cost 8 points (from p2 to p5 for Nico)

Sincerely, that is what happens when one of your drivers push the other to the grass, and the team say there´s none to blame. Lewis took note and applied same theory yesterday, except situation was a lot more excusable (first corner and he didn´t do any mistake, unlike Nico who pushed Lewis out after his own mistake with PU mapping)

Nico got in return same he did two races ago.

People tend to forget those movements when they are done by Lewis, its funny. I wont bring back what happened in Barcelona. I will simply say that Lewis knows that he is far superior to Nico in those wheel to wheel battles and he acts differently as he would do with Alonso or Vettel. With thouse drivers he would be hard but more cautious, with Nico not.

Sainz is doing a great, I cant wait to see him in another team.

No, I don´t forget anything, and no, Lewis would have done exactly the same with both Alonso and Seb, because he couldn´t do anything different. In that scenario you can only a/ do what he did, go a bit long and push your rival out. b/release the throttle and let him some space, what means gift him the leadership as next corner was to the right. No top driver would do that, the driver at the right will never change that.

[Andres125sx]

People tend to forget those movements when they are done by Lewis, its funny. I wont bring back what happened in Barcelona. I will simply say that Lewis knows that he is far superior to Nico in those wheel to wheel battles and he acts differently as he would do with Alonso or Vettel. With thouse drivers he would be hard but more cautious, with Nico not.

Sainz is doing a great, I cant wait to see him in another team.

I disagree on that. Vettel and and Alonso wouldn't have put their cars there because they would have known the outcome. Rosberg just didn't see that coming because he wouldn't have done what Hamiton did.
Some people in sport would step on their own granny to win, others wouldn't and they judge the competition with that view IMHO.

Well, it's a little different when you're team mates as well. While I mostly agree with you, if Alonso/Vettel had placed their cars where Rosberg did, Hamilton would also know that they're perfectly capable of 'not yielding.'

Rosberg didn´t yield, that´s the reason there was a contact, so no, the name of the driver at the right would have changed nothing. If the driver at the inner line takes the racing line, there´s nothing the driver in the outer line can do.

At any other situation, that would mean a penalty for Lewis, but it was first corner of first lap, rules usually don´t apply here.

[Andres125sx]

Forgot to comment about Ferrari.... OMG Ferrari.... Their strategists should be fired, actually they should have been fired long ago, I lost count how many times they messed it up

Also, their pit-stop mechanics are far from what a team like Ferrari should enjoy, almost 1 second slower than RB, 2,3 vs 3,1 seconds. That´s a lot of time in F1 and specially at the pitstops, since that´s the best chance to overtake, or to be overtaken

the ferrari strategy was as agreed before the race and using the virtual safety car period to stop was actually very cute ; what wasn't factored in was that the tyres would last so long in the exceptionally low temperatures , also that hamilton would be able to carry on and test that
can I quote rabbie burns here ? try...to a mouse

And that was his huge mistake, do not factor tires couls last so long in low temperatures.

OTOH Mercedes did factor it, and won the race, so looks like it was not something imposible to factor, right? That´s Ferrari strategist problem, they can´t consider what other teams (Mercedes this time, RBR some others) do consistently

[Vasconia]

No, I don´t forget anything, and no, Lewis would have done exactly the same with both Alonso and Seb, because he couldn´t do anything different. In that scenario you can only a/ do what he did, go a bit long and push your rival out. b/release the throttle and let him some space, what means gift him the leadership as next corner was to the right. No top driver would do that, the driver at the right will never change that.

The battles between Hamilton and Alonso haven tough but cleaner in my opinion. And I still think that Hamilton pushes Rosberg to the limit when they fight because he thinks he will make a mistake.

Those situations remind me the battles between Hill and Schumacher.

Well, this discussion could be endless haha.

Lets what happens in Baku!!

[Andres125sx]

Forgot to comment about Ferrari.... OMG Ferrari.... Their strategists should be fired, actually they should have been fired long ago, I lost count how many times they messed it up

Also, their pit-stop mechanics are far from what a team like Ferrari should enjoy, almost 1 second slower than RB, 2,3 vs 3,1 seconds. That´s a lot of time in F1 and specially at the pitstops, since that´s the best chance to overtake, or to be overtaken

Sheesh... you should know better....
How about we fire every single strategist on the pit wall because every single team yesterday ran a 2 stop race with at least one of their cars thinking that the softs would not last that long.

If they´re failing consistently as Ferrari strategist are doing, then yes, if it´s been a single mistake, then no. Is that that weird to you? Ferrari strategist are failing race after race, for a very long period now. This is not new, with Alonso they lost at least 1, maybe 2 titles because of that, poor strategist. Some seasons after, even after team renovation, they still keep making same mistakes

Mercedes with Hamilton planned a two stopper and switched to a one stopper because they rightly sssumed that was the only way they had a shot of finishing ahead of Vettel.

Because they have good strategist who can read race conditions, unlike Ferrari

heck lets fire pirelli too because the soft tire never hit a cliff and kept going like the energizer bunny...lol

Yes please!!!

Pit stops and red bull... really?? After Monaco and ricciardos long stop with right front wheel issues in canad you hold red bull as some shining example of pit stop perfection?

I don´t do statements based on last race, that, IMHO would be opportunist.

Not sure what do you usually see on the pit-stops, but yes, RBR is IMO the best team by far in this regard, even when they failed noisiliy in Monaco. Also strategically wise they´re the best to me. A single mistake in one race does not change that. Mercedes failed more than once here, and I can´t count Ferrari´s mistakes, so yes, RBR to me are a shining example of pit-stop and strategy perfection, despite Monaco.

BTW that´s the reason I´m sure they favoured Max in Spain, they´re too good to make a mistake that obvious, if you´re leading the race in Montmelo you cannot think a 3 stopper, forcing your driver to overtake on track, is the best strategy. Not by any standard

[Andres125sx]

Forgot to comment about Ferrari.... OMG Ferrari.... Their strategists should be fired, actually they should have been fired long ago, I lost count how many times they messed it up

Also, their pit-stop mechanics are far from what a team like Ferrari should enjoy, almost 1 second slower than RB, 2,3 vs 3,1 seconds. That´s a lot of time in F1 and specially at the pitstops, since that´s the best chance to overtake, or to be overtaken

I feel the same but somewhere in their heart they knew they do not have the pace to fend off Merc on the soft tyres. They were hoping for rain or SC or some sorts of interruption. It was a collective decision and that's why Vettel was pretty cool about it.
Merc tyre management is exceptional and Ferrari have no answers now. Previously they were very good but these days they are like fish out of the water.
Experts in the Ferrari team must be having better data to confirm their 2 stop strategy which we cannot see.
None the less unless that chasis and aero improves there is no hope this season.
Its bad luck that there was no rain nor any SC. They played their cards based on uncertain events. Luck is not on Ferrari's side at the moment.

Pretty biased overview of the race if you ask me.
EVERY team thought a 2 stop strategy was the way to go including Mercedes.
Vettel with a 2 stopper finished 5 seconds back from Hamilton

Bottas with a 1 stopper finished 12 seconds and 2 positions ahead of Rosberg, and 13 seconds and 3 postions ahead of Kimi

If someone is ´out of position´ implying that was the best strategy, it was Bottas

[Jolle]

I disagree on that. Vettel and and Alonso wouldn't have put their cars there because they would have known the outcome. Rosberg just didn't see that coming because he wouldn't have done what Hamiton did.
Some people in sport would step on their own granny to win, others wouldn't and they judge the competition with that view IMHO.

Well, it's a little different when you're team mates as well. While I mostly agree with you, if Alonso/Vettel had placed their cars where Rosberg did, Hamilton would also know that they're perfectly capable of 'not yielding.'

Rosberg didn´t yield, that´s the reason there was a contact, so no, the name of the driver at the right would have changed nothing. If the driver at the inner line takes the racing line, there´s nothing the driver in the outer line can do.

At any other situation, that would mean a penalty for Lewis, but it was first corner of first lap, rules usually don´t apply here.

In 2014, same corner, same guys but in the other order. Hamilton did make it to the apex following Rosberg and didn't go off.
Little by little it becomes clear that he isn't the contender that we all hoped. Even before the 2014 season almost everybody was convinced that the whole PU tech style of managing would be perfect for him and that Lewis would be greatly disadvantaged because of his rawness. As it turned out, Hamilton's feel goes even beyond all this tech stuff. He is a master in saving tires and fuel.
When they stopped the driver and car coaching from the pit wall, same kind of story. What to me is very telling, are the stickers on Rosberg's steering wheel. And still he ff 's up in Barcelona.
In wheel to wheel battles, you can't look ahead, you have to act on instinct for a great deal. React fast.
Of course Hamilton made a few wrong "instinct" calls in the past (I believe in 2011 he ended the first lap on three wheels more then once), but in general, he knows what he is doing. If Ricciario would have chased Rosberg instead of Hamilton in Monaco, he would have put him in the wall at the swimming pool.

On a good day, clear track, stable conditions, he's one of the fastest and steady guys out there. But something simple as a change in wind direction, and he's on the back foot.

[Andres125sx]

No, I don´t forget anything, and no, Lewis would have done exactly the same with both Alonso and Seb, because he couldn´t do anything different. In that scenario you can only a/ do what he did, go a bit long and push your rival out. b/release the throttle and let him some space, what means gift him the leadership as next corner was to the right. No top driver would do that, the driver at the right will never change that.

The battles between Hamilton and Alonso haven tough but cleaner in my opinion. And I still think that Hamilton pushes Rosberg to the limit when they fight because he thinks he will make a mistake.

I agree generally speaking, but not in this exact situation where there was no more options than giving up first position, or pushing him out.

[Schuttelberg]

I disagree on that. Vettel and and Alonso wouldn't have put their cars there because they would have known the outcome. Rosberg just didn't see that coming because he wouldn't have done what Hamiton did.
Some people in sport would step on their own granny to win, others wouldn't and they judge the competition with that view IMHO.

Well, it's a little different when you're team mates as well. While I mostly agree with you, if Alonso/Vettel had placed their cars where Rosberg did, Hamilton would also know that they're perfectly capable of 'not yielding.'

Rosberg didn´t yield, that´s the reason there was a contact, so no, the name of the driver at the right would have changed nothing. If the driver at the inner line takes the racing line, there´s nothing the driver in the outer line can do.

At any other situation, that would mean a penalty for Lewis, but it was first corner of first lap, rules usually don´t apply here.

I'm not implying that Lewis should have been penalized. Rosberg did yield by taking to the grass. If he puts his car on the track and doesn't go off, they collide. You do it once or twice and the next time drivers around you know that if they don't take evasive action there will be contact. That's how you put doubt in your competitors. In my opinion, without this thought, Rosberg's attempt was daft. Hamilton would never have simply allowed him to whistle by. The only way you pass around the outside there is by exploiting that doubt. If it's not there, then put it out there! No doubt there are consequences, but to be WDC you have to be that ruthless.

[FoxHound]

Why can people not just accept it for what it was, Hamilton and Rosberg both had cold tyres and brakes with a fully laden car, going into one of the silliest 2 corner complexes in F1.
Hamilton knew Rosberg was there, and understeered. Rosberg saw Hamilton, and went for a shrinking gap on a car that was understeering.

No need for ceremony.

That's racing, that's Canadian first lap incidents.

[Schuttelberg]

Forgot to comment about Ferrari.... OMG Ferrari.... Their strategists should be fired, actually they should have been fired long ago, I lost count how many times they messed it up

Also, their pit-stop mechanics are far from what a team like Ferrari should enjoy, almost 1 second slower than RB, 2,3 vs 3,1 seconds. That´s a lot of time in F1 and specially at the pitstops, since that´s the best chance to overtake, or to be overtaken

Sheesh... you should know better....
How about we fire every single strategist on the pit wall because every single team yesterday ran a 2 stop race with at least one of their cars thinking that the softs would not last that long.

If they´re failing consistently as Ferrari strategist are doing, then yes, if it´s been a single mistake, then no. Is that that weird to you? Ferrari strategist are failing race after race, for a very long period now. This is not new, with Alonso they lost at least 1, maybe 2 titles because of that, poor strategist. Some seasons after, even after team renovation, they still keep making same mistakes

Mercedes with Hamilton planned a two stopper and switched to a one stopper because they rightly sssumed that was the only way they had a shot of finishing ahead of Vettel.

Because they have good strategist who can read race conditions, unlike Ferrari

I don't know how you came up with the theory that Alonso lost titles because of Ferrari strategy. The problem with Alonso and his fans is that evrything right is done by their driver and everything wrong is done by the team. I'm assuming you're talking about the strategy @ AbuDhabi in 2010 and the strategists couldn't do anything in that situation. The mistake came from Alonso at the start when he lost a position to Button. This is never spoken about because obviously, how can Alonso be wrong. Also, at Brazil 2012, Ferrari's strategy was spotless. There are numerous reasons why Alonso and Ferrari didn't click and Alonso himself is one of them. Driving the car isn't enough.

Also, the Mercedes strategists are the same people that botched Lewis' strategy at Monaco 2015 and the same chaps that called their drivers in @ Malaysia 2015.

My point is that no matter what the Ferrari strategists did yesterday, they would have looked incorrect. Watch the press conference with Lewis and Seb and Lewis clearly mentions that they were going to do the opposite of Seb. Mercedes are simply in that place where they can choose a desirable strategy because of their superior pace. It's just as simple as that. Had Seb opted for a one stopper, Lewis would have made the under-cut and then once Vettel pitted he would have stretched a decent lead out!

Lastly, you win and lose as a team! Not because or in spite of one another.

[Hangaku]

This man speaks a lot of sense. Everyone would do well to listen.

[Schuttelberg]

Thanks man!

[Jolle]

I agree. At the moment, still, if you want to beat Mercedes you have to take risks (of be lucky). That's why Ricciardo qualified on SS in Monaco (the pole was probably not planned) and that's why Ferrari took the risk. If you follow Mercedes, you'll keep following them to the finish line.

It's also a game of chances. If they had a decent two stop, and Hamilton as well, they finished second, without chance for the victory. By gambling a bit, well, it's Canada. A SC at the good moment and you win.

I also believe Alonso has thrown away his own chances. Not a team player and nasty off track when it's not coming his way. I still believe he tried to get fired last year (GP2 engine, this is embarrassing, etc). But clearly Ron wouldn't have it